TulipGirl

Thank you for sharing that Cathy. But I can guarantee that the Pearl’s methods are not the only way to achieve children who are polite and respected. I have had 3 children since giving up the TTUAC materials and my children are still polite and a joy to have in my life.

I can tell you honestly, that even my autistic two year old, who lacks greatly in the ability to communicate, has been taught how to share, be gentle, give and take, and even say please and thank you, without the type of parenting that the Pearl’s would encourage me to perform.

I’m glad that you have children that you are so proud of, but I would encourage you to read stories like mine (which is linked above as My Pearl’s Experience) and see shat other kind of fruit the Pearl’s methods can leave in one’s life.

In Him,

Anne

thanks Tulip Girl…

cathy, you should appropriately give the glory to GOD and not the Pearls for the way your children turned out…but of course, that’s just another thing that the Pearls encourage…glory for them…what a shame

Blessings
Barbara

Thanks so much for doing this!

I appreciate your encouragement to me, Kathy, Skerrib, Barbara, and Anne — as well as how y’all have been transparent with your own struggles and how God has gently led you, along with your young ones.

I was about as gung-ho Pearl’s as you can get. I’m not sure I’ve met a more passionate defender then I was. But, a very long story short, I am now so repentant for parenting my children through the Pearls “training” methods. I truly did believe I was doing what was best for my kids. I truly had the best of intentions.

It’s just that the Pearls taught me to parent SO differently than God parents me… My journey out of Pearl parenting was long, but it did not happen because I left the Bible, but rather because I started studying it in a more careful manner.

This post sums up much regarding how I think the Pearls training methods sharply differ from God’s, and why I’ve left their methods:
Parenting: Performance Mentality (Is it Compatible with Christ)?

Thanks, TG, for all you do. You were one of the voices cautioning me about the Pearls “way back when.” I couldn’t hear you then. But I wanted to say that I am thankful you were willing to speak up, even when misunderstood.

As always, I am so thankful for your input with regard to parenting “programs.” You’ve been very thorough with this one.

Thanks for being a blessing.

Molly brings up some excellent points.

Why is it that the Pearls’ write that if someone disagrees with them they are “anti-family” or “unbiblical” or “deceived”? Couldn’t it be that we just disagree with their POV?

Case in point, I have many friends that like the Ezzo-style of parenting. I’ve never been fond of it and it personally doesn’t jive with me. Yet I would never ever call any of them “anti-family” or “deceived”. Yea, I don’t agree with Ezzo or any of that kind of parenting method, but it isn’t in my power to judge someone who does. I’ve just done my research and found it to be personally wrong for me.

Same is true with TTUAC. Many of us have done our research (or actually tried the methods)and the parenting style didn’t fit us. But somehow if we critique it, it is wrong? So Christian parenting is a one-size-fits-all approach? If we follow certain rules I guess our kids are guaranteed to turn out ok and have a relationship with Christ themselves. Wouldn’t that be nice if our actions could guarantee that our kids get saved.

Unfortunately this isn’t the case. Many parents raise their kids the right way and some children still turn away. There is never a method to guarantee our child’s salvation. We can encourage our children in the way of the Lord, but there is no magical solution to their eternal salvation. We can’t make our kids perfect, just as we can’t make ourselves perfect.

If we don’t like a certain method of parenting it doesn’t neccessarily imply that we are “unbiblical”. I’m pretty sure that TG and other posters here have searched within their hearts and prayed on how to parent their children. I’m sure that they are following God in how they raise their children.

Just because we disagree with the Pearls doesn’t make us bad Christian parents.

As a Mama of six who has read all of the Pearl’s parenting books, I am grateful for this place to thoughtfully, gently dialogue, and prayerfully support our brothers and sisters in Christ as we seek God’s will for our families.

It is good to listen and hear voices and stories from both perspectives– thank you, each of you who have taken the time.

We share our parenting story with the Pearl’s here.

Every blessing…
In Christ,
Ann

TG, i have always appreciated your thoughtful, gracious wisdom and your unwavering commitment to seeking the truth. You show so much class in these types of situations. Thanks for all you do.

“…BUT these negative remarks are hurting YOU and all other young families with children. These outspoken, uninformed critics are attacking YOUR rights every time they get on the web and speak out against us or any advocates for a godly family…”

“…Daily these anti-parent-rights people are writing negative things about Christians who teach Biblical parenting. Many Christians have been so inundated with the world that they have joined the anti-family critics speaking against NGJ and other ministries…”

Is Mr. Pearl saying that when parents voice reservations about the Pearls’ teachings, it takes away the right of parents like JJ to choose how to parent her child? Surely that is an exaggeration.

I can understand that a critical discussion of his books might be uncomfortable to an author, but surely such discussions don’t take away anyone’s rights.

For example, I don’t think JJ’s rights are taken away by any such a thing, and I doubt she thinks so, either. Rather, it seems to me that if these ideas are worthy of coming into popularity, they are worthy of and can stand up under public discussion, and the examination of fellow believers.

All of us become better parents and better human beings AND better Christians when we talk to one another, reason things out, pool our wisdom and knowledge.

Some thoughts on how children raised differently than the Pearl’s recommend may turn out… Things I am thinking about, considering…

Again, thank you TG for this forum to respectfully and thoughtfully reflect on Scripture and listen to each other’s perspectives. Our gratitude.

All’s grace…

As I read through these comments, one thing is clear…no one points to the obvious. The obvious fact is: the Bible points to corporal punishment as the way to discipline. While the Pearls are expanding this teaching with practical insights, this method is not new. But the woman’s liberal movement is. Do you see the connection in the increase in the moral decline of our society with the loss of parenting standards. Not only does the Bible teach to spank, but it was written by the hand of a man who was dubbed the wisest man on earth-King Solomon. How can we pick and choose which doctrines in the Bible are worthwhile and which ones aren’t? I think the Word is very clear. And I think the Pearl’s ways are very helpful. Yes, God is full of mercy and grace but he is also a just and righteous God who is jealous and won’t tolerate sin, which is present in even the smallest child. A young child doesn’t have the capacity to repent and turn to God. He is only aware of the need to obey his parents when they demonstrate through spanking, that he has boundaries and there are very real dangers that are beyond his understanding. Pain is a natural consequence to wrong behavior whether you’re an adult or child. It is a warning that everyone has to learn. Better to learn while still young. I can testify, as a foster parent, that both methods(spanking vs. not) can work; Mike Pearl points this out on his website. But the bottom line is the Bible is our authority on parenting. For more proof that God is a jealous God, read about how he punished His children in the Old Testament. I hope this makes sense. God Bless you.

Dear Colleen, allow me to disagree with you entirely.

You said:
“As I read through these comments, one thing is clear…no one points to the obvious. The obvious fact is: the Bible points to corporal punishment as the way to discipline.”

No it doesn’t. The bible points to the need for discipline, not corporal punishment. If there is a biblical command to spank, you’ll have to show me.

“While the Pearls are expanding this teaching with practical insights, this method is not new.”

Sin is also old, but that doesn’t make it a good thing.

“But the woman’s liberal movement is. Do you see the connection in the increase in the moral decline of our society with the loss of parenting standards.”

This has nothing to do with the women’s liberal movement, and your attempt to draw the two together is a real twist of logic. The damage to our society is not new, and is the result of living in a fallen world, not parents choosing not to spank.

“Not only does the Bible teach to spank, but it was written by the hand of a man who was dubbed the wisest man on earth-King Solomon.”

Oh! So you are going to use Proverbs as a book of law. Proverbs are bits of Jewish Wisdom, meant to teach a truth, in this case the truth that children need discipline. To use Proverbs as a command to spank is a misuse of Scripture.

“How can we pick and choose which doctrines in the Bible are worthwhile and which ones aren’t?”

We’re not. You simply haven’t proven that spanking is biblical.

“I think the Word is very clear. And I think the Pearl’s ways are very helpful.”

I disagree, and I will pray for you.

“Yes, God is full of mercy and grace but he is also a just and righteous God who is jealous and won’t tolerate sin, which is present in even the smallest child.”

But the only way sin can be cleansed from a human being is through the blood of Jesus Christ, shed for us on the cross as a willing sacrifice. We can not purge sin from our children with a rod, and to teach so is heresy.

“A young child doesn’t have the capacity to repent and turn to God. He is only aware of the need to obey his parents when they demonstrate through spanking, that he has boundaries and there are very real dangers that are beyond his understanding.”

Boundaries, limits, and authority can be taught without corporal punishment.

“It is a warning that everyone has to learn. Better to learn while still young. I can testify, as a foster parent, that both methods(spanking vs. not) can work; Mike Pearl points this out on his website.”

So, do you also support the Pearl’s when the recommend that mothers keep domestic abusers in the home, or men that are molesting their children?

“But the bottom line is the Bible is our authority on parenting.”

I agree.

“For more proof that God is a jealous God, read about how he punished His children in the Old Testament. I hope this makes sense. God Bless you.”

God bless you too. And please, go read the New Testament. In it, God decides to take on our punishment so that we can live forever with him in heaven. He lets us experience temporal consequences for our actions, but does not pour out his wrath on us. Instead, Jesus allowed Himself to be nailed to a tree. He may be a jealous God, but he parents us with Grace and Mercy. Something that I intend to show my children while properly disciplining them and teaching them boundaries.

The Pearls teach that spanking removes the guilt of sin from a child.

Um…. last time I checked, only the BLOOD OF JESEUS CHRIST could cleanse from sin.

Cally, do you have a source for that teaching? That is positively blasphemous.

The guilt burdened soul cries out for the lashes and nails of justice. Your child cannot yet understand that the Creator has been lashed and nailed in his place. Only the rod of correction can preserve his soul until the day of moral dawning (42).

The parent holds in his hand (in the form of a little switch) the power to absolve the child of guilt, cleanse his soul, instruct his spirit, strengthen his resolve, and give him a fresh start through a confidence that all indebtedness is paid (43).

A child properly and timely spanked is healed in the soul and restored to wholeness of spirit. A child can be turned back from the road to hell through proper spankings….Father, as high priest of the family you can reconcile your child to newness of life (44).

Part of the problem is that the Pearls deny the sinful nature of man. They believe that children are not responsible for their sins before God until a certain age because their parents use the “rod” to drive the guilt from them (see the quote above).

I can see why use of the rod is such a big deal to them because they see it as salvific for children until they reach the mysterious age of accountability (whenever that is).

Spanking, though present in some form in the Bible, is not Biblically mandated.

Depending on your knowledge of the original text (of which mine is pretty much nil) and how you translate it, I’m told that “spanking,” as presented in the Bible, looks almost nothing like how it’s used in current times.

I’m not anti-spanking, I’m just saying that God doesn’t say we HAVE to spank to be effective parents.

I found the “Avoiding Millstones” article extremely helpful on this point.

This has been an interesting discussion, one I hope that our sisters in Christ who followed Mr. Pearl’s urging to post here will join in–for real–not just leaving behind “A Pearl Follower Was Here” carvings on the blog (as it were).

The theology here does concern me. I understand the deep desire for well-behaved children who follow directions, and for a happy, even joyful, home. One tenet of Christian ethics is that the end–however good–do not justify the means. The means themselves must be ethical.

What I am concerned about here is that the means under discussion — conditioning — has been baptized by a sprinkling with rod scriptures into acceptability. The Scriptures do say things about rods, but is behavioristic conditioning what the Scripture is talking about?

colleen,

my dear sister, please reread what you wrote in your comment. as a mother of an adopted child your words leave me deeply grieved. the needs of foster and adopted children go so far beyond external obedience and they can only be met by the unthinkable grace of God.

i will be praying for your children and your family today.

This is an excerpt from yet another website that advocates corporal punishment. They make some good points. You can read more at http://www.creationists.org/corporalpunishment.html

Many secular “experts”, including most pediatricians, psychiatrists and psychologists have come out strongly against the use of corporal discipline in homes and in schools. Unfortunately, many well-meaning parents have been deceived by the foolish advice of the “don’t spank” crowd. One only needs to go to a local grocery store or mall, or visit a typical public school to see the negative fruits of this misguided advice. We are not suggesting that spanking is the only option that parents should have to deal with willful disobedience in their children. Neither are we suggesting that it’s acceptable to take it to abusive extremes. What we are saying is that it is a God ordained method of discipline, that there are situations where it’s the best option, and that completely ruling it out as a discipline option as the “don’t spank” advocates would have us to do is in direct conflict with God’s advice to us on how we should be dealing with defiance in our children.

It has been my personal experience that people who consider all forms of corporal discipline to be “abuse” or “hitting” or “violence” mislead others in three ways:

1.

They often quote studies where actual abuse is mixed in with corporal discipline that is administered out of love for the child.
2.

They always ignore what their Creator has to say on the matter, or are ignorant of it. If they claim to be Christians, they approach their bible study on this matter doing eisegesis instead of exegesis. As a result they end up engaging in all kinds of tortured bible interpretation in an attempt to try to force the Bible to support what they believe.
3.

They place a higher value on secular studies and fallible doctors, psychiatrists and psychologists instead of obeying the advice of the infallible God who created all of them, and who demands of us that we do things His way.

If you’re interested in learning how to raise your children using training and discipline methods that work well, then ignore the secular “experts”. Instead, seek out conservative Christian materials and experts on the topic. As the father of six children, I know from first-hand experience that these methods work very well, and that they have virtually none of the alleged negative side-affects the don’t spank advocates claim they do.

I am concerned that in supplying these quotations, Colleen, you are presenting a defense to a position that has not been staked out here.

It is discouraging to try and have a fruitful and edifying dialogue, only to be met by lengthy quotes that aren’t about the things we’re saying.

Colleen, you have made some great points, and I actually (surprise!) agree that it is reasonable to interpret the rod verses as giving a warrant for physical discipline.

I also agree that people have to grapple with the fact that these are not wrist slaps that are described. There are stripes, and there are people who are anxious that the subject of the punishment could die from it. So we are talking about a very severe punishment.

It puts me in mind of the much-publicized case some years ago of a young American hoodlum living in Singapore, subject to the law there, who was convicted of vandalism and punished by caning, as is the custom there. It is a very severe and physically damaging punishment. He probably has scars on his body from it. Subjects of caning will usually faint from the pain. So you can see how it would be natural for there to be anxiety about possible death from this type of application of the rod.

Now THAT’s an application of the rod that does justice to the description of stripes and the fears people have of accidentally killing the person subjected to the punishment. I do not think American interpreters of these rod Scriptures do them justice if their goal is to take them literally.

Now there is another Proverb I would like to ask how you interpret.

Prov 23:2 — And put a knife to thy throat, if thou [be] a man given to appetite.

I know a man who overeats on a pretty regular basis. Based on the way you interpret the Proverbs, should he:

a) cut his throat with a knife
b) hold a knife up to his throat
c) put an end to overeating

If you suggest C, naturally I am going to ask you how you uphold that interpretation, but feel that a person MUST be beaten with a rod in order to uphold the other Proverbs.

I am not being antagonistic, I promise. If it comes out that way, it’s because I need to get off the computer and make lunch for my son before he goes out job-hunting this afternoon!

–Kathy

(Kathy, it appears we were posting at the same time. I was thinking of that EXACT same proverb, the knife to the throat, though there are plenty more that would be pretty odd to take “literally.” Thanks for taking the time to quote it, though).

Warmly,
Molly

It can be difficult to interpret that verse the way it is because there are no other verses of its kind in Proverbs(dealing with extreme solutions for appetite control). Matt.5:28-30 deals with self-control,but not exactly the same thing. If we went with the literal interpretation, we would conclude that the scriptures advocate suicide. That is a whole other subject.

I think what we are talking about are two different things. It is pretty far off to put a knife to your throat. It is not far off to administer loving correction to a stubborn child.

At the end of the day, we all have to follow what we believe in our hearts is God’s direct commands for our lives. “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.” John 10:27

TG,
I have one comment that I think hit the spam box and a couple others that are “awaiting moderation.” Your site doesn’t like me today, I guess.

Dear Colleen,

What about “thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me”? Does that sound like the Lord using an instrument to beat us? There are many uses for the word “rod” in the bible, and I do not believe that it holds up as a biblical mandate for spanking.

Also, I’d like you to consider your words:
“How does beating our children deliver their souls from hell? How can we deliver our children’s souls from hell if Christ’s blood does that? Think about it…it makes sense, it’s clear, it is mandated.”

It doesn’t save their souls from hell. Only the blood of Jesus does that. Otherwise we are entering heaven based on works. I can not save my children through spanking. I simply can not.

The problem with the quote you gave is that it’s a proverb and NOT meant to be taken as a literal command. It teaches us the importance of discipline.

In the end, our ultimate guide for how to treat our children is God. God who showed us mercy by taking our punishment on Himself, who told us to do to others what we’d like to have done to us, who said that the kingdom of God belongs to those who are like little children, and said that what we do to children, we do to Him.

Thank you, Colleen, you make an interesting point: There are several proverbs that repeat the same vivid imagery.

While the knife to the throat command might seem a bit extreme, it is only a little more extreme than the scripture that says to pluck out your right eye if it offends you.

You hesitate to interpret the knife scripture literally. However, we can’t pick and choose, we can’t “favorite” the rod verses but draw back from the knife verses.

Since suicide is unbiblical, as you noted, we must guide our interpretation of the knife verse, keeping that in mind.

Therefore, overeaters who take the scriptures seriously can put a knife to their throat, but avoid cutting the jugular vein. Just as you probably don’t use a real, biblical-sized rod on your children, perhaps it would be ok to find a knife that would hurt but not cut the skin too deeply.

If you do this without fail each and every time you overeat, I promise you will quickly conclude that second helpings are not worth it. Any weight problem you might have had that was related to overeating will lift. Any health problem related to overeating will lift. The chaos associated with yoyo dieting will be a thing of the past, making mealtimes less tense and your home will be calmer.

You must be wondering if I’m being serious–or if I am crazy.

However, I believe that we MUST interpret these Proverbs even-handedly. I am serious about that. If it is correct to interpret the rod scriptures in the way you describe or that webpage you linked to describes, then we must stand ready to take these other Proverbs at face value as well and not shrink from what they are telling us.

Think about it, at any rate.

Let me give you another example.

Proverbs 20:17: “Bread obtained by falsehood is sweet to a man, But afterward his mouth will be filled with gravel.”

How do you interpret this?

I used to work in a grocery store bakery, and when I would come in at 6 AM, I would often find empty packages of out-of-code sweet rolls lying around. The night crew were habitual pilferers.

None of them ever mentioned having a problem with gravel filling their mouths.

Was that because they stole sweet rolls, not bread? Or did they fear to mention the gravel because then everyone would know they were stealing bread?

No–I don’t think so. While I beleive in the truth of scripture, there has to be another way to interpret Proverbs. And there is.

Proverbs are like Truth Concentrate. They often contain vivid and/or exaggerated word pictures which deliver the underlying axiomatic truth in a very memorable way.

The point is not whether the gravel–or the knife–or the rod–or the stripes–are literal. The point is these word pictures have important truths behind them that teach morals or tell us about the way the world works.

And regardless of where any of us happen to stand on the issue of spanking–every person in these threads as far as I know believes strongly that children must be *disciplined* and must learn to respect their parents’ authority. Just like the scriptures teach.

It would be great to clear away the false assumptions that so often hamper this kind of discussion so that we can dialogue about concerns people have about Mr. Pearl’s material rather than imagined concerns. It’s not really about spanking, even if we do interpret Proverbs differently.

You may find we have false assumptions, too. If so…let’s talk!

(And even though I just said this isn’t REALLY about spanking…I do still challenge you change your hermeneutical approach when you interpret the Rod verses and then change back to the standard hermeneutical approach when you read other proverbs. )

To the above comments about putting a knife to your throat, does anyone know someone who has taken that literally? I don’t, but I do know many people from all walks of life who use corporal punishment. If it is the wrong way to discipline, why does Proverbs make such a big deal about it?
When talking of the rod(and staff)giving comfort, I think it means the Word of God guiding us. It gives a child comfort in the same way; having a rod guiding a child. Many think of using a rod on a child as a torturous thing, but I know that it is actually comforting to a child to have his boundaries clear. Being motivated by fear as Ann@HolyExperience was talking about is not always a bad thing. We are motivated by love in a lot of ways but we are also motivated by fear. I fear that if I touch a hot stove, I may get burned. I fear that if steal money, or break the law, I may go to jail. Kids can be motivated by fear as well. For instance, my child may not know what electric shock is and may be too young to understand to not chew on an electrical cord of a lamp and I am not going to let him make the association on his own as some would suggest, but he can understand the pain of a switching with a firm “no”. A firm “no” will not be associated negatively in his brain if he doesn’t experience pain. Some might suggest to condition him by taking him away from the cord or simply telling him “no”. Is that not also conditioning? And what would he learn from that? NOTHING!
I am never surprised to see that moms and dads who don’t spank have a hard time controlling(and yes I think they need to control) their unruly children. They are the ones whose children run in the streets and don’t come the first time when called. They are the ones who have their parents on a leash. The parents, without recognizing it, give their children whatever they want in an effort to appease them. The parents have to reason with them and ask over and over to please get in bed or put your shoes on or eat your meal or stop screaming or don’t touch that. These are the parents who scratch their heads when their kid says I hate you or some other foul comment. These parents typically feel frustrated that they have to repeat themselves over and over and wonder why they had more than 2 kids. These parents feel helpless at times and don’t feel “loved” by their little darlings. They can’t understand why they just won’t stop teasing their sibling?! They talk like experts about corporal discipline and the alternative but would spank if it didn’t make them feel so guilty. Their schedules revolve around there little ones and they don’t have a life anymore because they can’t take them out to a nice restaurant or even to the park without experiencing some kind of embarrassment. The husbands wonder where their wives went. They have disrespectful and sassy teens. Their children are fearful, not of them, but of things unseen and unknown because they don’t feel truly protected(they are their own boss). These parent’s generally experience a lot of grief associated with the uncertainty of correct parenting. They can’t grasp why they can’t get their child to just obey. They often feel discouraged because the bad behaviors never end. They give in to their child’s whining and selfish whims. The headaches of parenting go on and on for these. A job outside the home for these mothers looks like paradise and they pity the stay-at-home mom. These parents have deep rooted issues of their own from childhood and can’t come to terms with correct parenting. They have been brainwashed by modern secularism and their children are the “fruit” of their hypocritical ways. If you can say that you don’t use corporal punishment and yet still enjoy a peaceful home with well behaved children who do none of the aforementioned things, I applaud you. You should write a book.
The Pearls’ methods are straight forward, not harsh, proven, and doctrinally sound. They back up what they teach with the Bible(as they interpret it).

Disagreement is not persecution. Christians are being terrified, imprisoned, and killed in several corners of the world today. “That” is persecution! Anyone as vociferous as the Pearls would surely not see some intellectual opposition to be persecution. I am reminded of the schoolyard adage, “don’t dish it out if you can’t take it.” If they want to be teachers, they can expect to have their teachings examined.

TulipGirl, I am so sorry to bother you with this, but I can not seem to unsubscribe from this thread. I am happy to read at this site, but I’d rather not have every reply in my inbox Your “manage your subscriptions” button is not working. Help?

Amy. . . I’m so sorry. . . It’s not working for me either. Not even behind the scenes. I know it’s annoying to have your inbox flooded. (And I’m still working on it with my techy friend.)

Hello, I am wanting off the blog because your replies are filling my in box. It is nothing personal nor am I offended by the comments here. I will visit the website and communicate when I can. Please advise quickly how I can unsubscribe.
Thank you and Blessings,
Jj

Colleen, I haven’t heard anyone attack your right to spank your kids. I do think people have the right to choose NOT to spank their kids. To say it’s a requirement takes away the freedom we have in Christ.

My disagreement with the Pearls is not over spanking. I spank, but I don’t follow the Pearls because I’m not comfortable with their theology, and because of my own control issues which would likely be triggered if I did. It’s that simple. It would be harmful to me, and consequently to my family.

Because of my background, I need the constant reinforcement of grace. I also think it’s worth noting that good behavior, while desirable, is a poor indicator of inner health. I like this quote from “Families Where Grace Is In Place”:

“In controlling, shaming families, love and acceptance come as a reward for jumping through certain behavioral hoops. People are validated for their right doing, not simply for being. Children grow up needy and empty. To earn personal approval, which they never really receive, they learn to perform well. Good behavior is whatever the people with power in the family decide is positive. Hence, adults may be lulled into believing that their children are spiritually strong and mature, when in fact they may be people pleasers.”

Cally, are you suggesting that child molesters aren’t capable of repentance? Will there be child molesters in heaven? You can’t put a one size fits all fix to a problem like that. Nor should that comment disqualify the Pearls ministry. He isn’t suggesting to let your kids remain in harms way, only giving your husband the chance to repent. There are other articles on their website that urge women going through these things to testify against him in court and when he’s released, the kids most likely will be grown and gone. The article titled The Criminal says, “If he truly repents and gets saved, and you should choose to forgive him, the girls should never be forced to be in subjection to him again. He forfeited the right to be their father when he committed a crime worthy of death against them. If they choose to forgive and accept him as their father, that would be a blessed thing for them. They have been hurt enough; they shouldn’t have to live with the hate and anger. That would mean that his sin is continuing to follow them.”

Cally, are you suggesting that child molesters aren’t capable of repentance?

No one has said that. Repent, sure, get help, sure. But I guarantee you that a pedophile truly serious about repentance will NEVER live with or be around children again.

You can’t put a one size fits all fix to a problem like that.

As a child who was molested, I totally disagree with you. When a child is molested you call the cops and never let that person anywhere near your children ever again. Repentance and forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to protect me kids. One size. Fits all.

Nor should that comment disqualify the Pearls ministry.

If it were all by itself I might think they just weren’t educated. But combine it with their advice to women being beaten by their husbands (which you’ve refused to respond to) and their heresy regarding spanking cleansing sin (which you’ve refused to respond to), and the other major issues with their teachings, and yes, I think it wise and prudent to discount their teachings and ministry.

He isn’t suggesting to let your kids remain in harms way, only giving your husband the chance to repent.

They say that if he repents, do nothing. That IS putting the kids in harms way. So is allowing him back into your home even if the kids are grown. A man who has perpetrated a sex act on my child has broken the covenant of marriage and the covenant between parent and child and will never darken my doorstep again. I hope men like that do repent and are cleansed of their sin. But I’m not going to test their restraint with children. Because the risk is far too great. That’s what the Pearls and you are ignoring.

I have forgiven those who molested me. And I pray that other other survivors are able to do the same. Honestly, it was in my best interest to do so, and I did it for me, not them. But to say that it would be a blessed thing for them to accept as their father a man who molested them?

Do you have any idea how many of these men do it again and again? Do you have any idea how many of these men perpetrate the acts on their grandchildren, neighbors, or other available children?

Tell me something, if a man told you flatly that he’d molested children, but repented and promised not to do it again, would you want him around your kids? Because I certainly wouldn’t. It’s a compulsion for them, and again, my kids are too great a risk.

The Pearl’s teachings are downright dangerous, and one has to gloss over glaring inconsistencies, errors, bad advice, heresy, and more to accept their teachings.

My real concern here is this…When we, as Christians, bicker amongst one another and side with the world’s philosophies of child rearing, directly contradicting God’s methods (ie. the rod,) how can we expect to maintain the freedoms we have in our country.

We are not siding with the worlds philosophies over the methods of God. What’s being argued here is whether or not what the Pearl’s are teaching is in fact God’s way, and I don’t think that they, you, or anyone else has shown that it is! In fact, I believe that the Pearls simply believe in spanking and are twisting scripture to support their view.

And saying that we are commanded to spank is to deny my Christian liberty, something that we as Christians should be very uncomfortable with.

As for the freedoms of this country, I have no idea what you mean.

Aren’t there enough ultra-liberal, psycho babble following secularists who wish to ban spanking altogether? DO we really need other Christians trying to rob us of our Biblical mandate to use the rod to impart wisdom and “drive foolishness” from our children’s hearts?

You don’t drive foolishness from a child by spanking them, but through thoughtful, consistent discipline. You’re applying a Proverb as a law, which is a misuse of the text. And I’m not an ultra-liberal, but a sister-in-Christ. You seem perfectly content to rob me of my liberty to not spank by stating that spanking is a biblical mandate. How is that okay?

The bottom line is that God’s word says that the rod is the means for correcting our children: not words, not timeouts, not taking away the Wii. It’s the rod.

Yes, the rod which is consistent DISCIPLINE, not spanking.

If God’s word says it, I follow it and trust it to be the best He has for us.

So, you apply all Proverbs as law?

If you’re not sure about the literal vs. figurative interpretation of a word, such as rod, go to the original text and find that word and its verbage. Compare it with every other time that the word is used in the Bible. You will find consistency.

Yep, done that, and looked at the word shebet and it’s context elsewhere in scripture. Again, I found that it’s not a biblical mandate to spank.

If we don’t believe GOd’s word in its entirety, we can’t believe it at all. Live it all or not at all.

So now if I don’t agree with your interpretation of scripture, I’m denying it’s authority. Nope. Not biting. I’m a bible believing Christian who disagrees with a method of child rearing that goes against other biblical principles and is backed up by scripture taken out of context, twisted, and misapplied.

Um, no where NO WHERE in Scripture is there a command to spank children.

Amy, why isn’t your concern about the Pearls’ teaching that spanking removes the guilt of sin from a child? That is a heretical teaching!

There is no mandate in the Bible to strike your child and call it discipline. Proverbs are not commands- they are sayings of wisdom. You cannot interpret them the same way you interpret Leviticus. You have to take it as seriously as you take Leviticus, but you can’t interpret it the same way. That’s hermeneutics 101. You cannot take them all literally- see above for a good example of what happens when we take all Proverbs literally and then extend them out to their logical conclusion.

The PRINCIPLE behind the “rod” scriptures in Proverbs is that we must discipline our children. Proverbs tells me that if I beat my child with the rod, he will not die. It doesn’t say he may not die- it says he will not die. We all know that this is patently false if we’re taking it literally! Children are beaten to death every day in the name of discipline. But if we look at the principle (dare I say, the spirit) of the Proverb, it is obvious that this is talking about discipline in general and not about striking our children. That’s not “the world’s interpretation”, that’s logic. That’s common sense.

If we’re talking original languages here, I’d like to point out that the Hebrew word for children in ALL of the rod passages is the one used for older children and not young infants, toddlers, or preschoolers.

If you want to spank your kids, go right ahead. Just don’t blame God for it. No one here is trying to infringe on your right to discipline your kids the way you see fit. We are simply trying to point out that, some families attempt to parent the way God parents us- with grace, dignity, and mercy. That is not “the world’s way”- THAT is God’s way.

jj,
In case she doesn’t see this until tonight, TG’s blog is messed up and she’s doing what she can to get it to stop doing that but hasn’t figured out how to do it yet. I had it happen to me on another thread—it is annoying! The good news is that as soon as the discussion stops on this thread, your inbox will stop getting flooded.

I’ve received several requests to unsubscribe people from receiving emails of comments on posts to which they responded. I want to make sure all understand that I have not signed anyone up for these subscriptions, when you post a comment you have the opportunity to opt in or opt out.

It has taken a few days to figure out some of the behind-the-scenes wordpress coding, but I can now unsubscribe those who have asked that I do so. I appreciate those who have been patient.

So as not to sidetrack the discussion, those who wish to be unsubscribed, please comment here.

And I do encourage you to continue the conversation!

Grace and peace,
TG

Hi all. After giving these statements some long hard thought, I think the answer to all this is to remember that some day, we will all be spending eternity together. Whether we agree or not on the interpretations of passages in the Bible doesn’t negate our responsibility to love one another. I enjoy debating the Bible and hearing all sides and comments because I really learn a lot when I am forced to defend my position. I truly appreciate every one of you who has commented on this site. I appreciate the freedoms we have in this country and in Christ.

I honestly don’t know if spanking will save a child’s soul from hell. I will be doing more of my own research and prayer. All I know is that for me it works. I respect any mom or dad who seeks to raise their child in the admonition of the Lord, whatever that may look like for them. I respect the Pearls’ ministry because in so many ways, I have benefited from it. I don’t think there is a ministry that is truly dedicated to Christ that doesn’t have some discrepancies/faults. We cannot discount them all, for they are all flesh bound by sin. And that is because we are human. I have heard people say that “if you can find a perfect church, I’ll go there too.” That’s because we are the church, the body of Christ. “And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.” -Mark 3:25
If we as a nation were being persecuted for having a Bible or for simply proclaiming that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, we would have little time to debate the controversies of disciplining our children. During His ministry, Jesus prayed that we would be one(John 17:11). He knew that the temptation to split in the name of “doctrine” would be serious. Even Peter and Paul battled with differing doctrinal beliefs(Galations 2). That didn’t discount either one’s ministry. One of them was in the wrong. They still ministered. They both still went on to lead spiritually fruitful lives/ministries. All through the Bible we see how the Lord worked His will through sinful and yes, even hypocritical people. It is not beyond God to use sinful people to do His will; Example: Jonah, King David, King Solomon, Noah, the 12 disciples, etc.

When it comes to parenting, we are all striving to the same ends: to raise our children to love the Lord, to be obedient, and to do unto others as you would do to yourself. We all have shortcomings. We ALL need God’s grace in parenting.

I not only appreciate the Pearl’s ministry but also other ministries who dare to enter the topic of child rearing and give others Christians admonition. We need to search for the Truth. It is a journey each person must make on their own. I guess for me personally, if I felt that someone’s advice was putting my life or my children’s lives in danger, I would act apart from their teachings. But I would not discredit them altogether. Truth from the Word is Truth, no matter who teaches it or quotes it. Will we go to hell based on how we interpret a piece of scripture? Does God promise to lead us to the truth when we search for it with all our hearts?(Deuteronomy 4:29)

I can tell that each and every one of the mom’s on this site fervently desires to nurture their children and raise them right. I try to keep in perspective in my life that our battle is not against flesh and blood(Ephesians 6:12) but our enemy would have us think that it is. My prayer is that in God’s mercy, we will all come to understand His truth, but that more importantly we will love one another.