TulipGirl

I have listened to the Pearls for 20 years. Yes, I started reading and listening right after they started their ministry. Their teachings have fruit in my life. My five children are well known and respected in our community. They are well known and respected in the communitites they have moved to. Although many teenagers are well known these days, not many are respected. Mine are and it is a joy and a blessing to me. I sleep soundly at night and I do not worry about them because they are not foolish and they do not run with the pack. Oh, and I might mention that they are in public school. The Pearls have helped me teach them to recognize and insulate them from evil. I hope that you have as much fruit as I do when your children are teenagers. We will see.

Thanks for compiling all of these!

Cathy, it’s a wonderful thing that your kids are known and respected, and that you can trust them. I do hope for those sorts of things for my son.

I did notice that you didn’t mention spiritual fruit–do you see the same results as far as loving Jesus and pursuing God? I was known and respected as a teenager, and was an empty shell of a Christian wearing a happy and compliant mask. It was only after I came out of a performance-based way of living that I began to experience God.

sorry about that link, it was wrong… :mrgreen:

Cathy, thank you for sharing your experiences. It brings to mind something one of the “Titus 2″ women in my life shared with me once:

“And lastly, and I say this gently, as the parent of grown kids, knowing Michael Pearl is also the parent of grown kids: we have wonderful children–he does, I’m sure–and so do I. But without even knowing his children I can know this about them: they are not perfect. They hurt. They make mistakes. They struggle. They are prideful and overly simplistic at times; and crippled by shame and hesitancy at others. Yes–they are beautiful examples of human beings, his children (I assume), and mine (I know.) But they are not perfect. If they were, they would not be human. If it were possible to raise children to perfection, then God would have sent a parenting method, not Jesus. Our marching orders are not to raise our children by a method to be like Pearl children. Our marching orders are to be Christians to and with our children.” –katiekind

At the heart of parenting is living out the Gospel, both in daily reliance upon the Lord and communicating that to the people God has put in our families.

Grace and peace,
TG

TulipGirl, I have not “seen” you in awhile! We used to be acquainted on a message board several years ago; I was “amy3dulcimer” then.

Your blog is lovely. I hope you and your family are well.

My favorite families (full of beautiful Christian examples) are from an era before the Pearls ever had children or wrote books. I wonder which parenting book they followed? Probably just the Bible! It has been the real guide for good families for a very long time.

My own mother raised five respectable and respected children, who all became Christians, married Christians, and raised children who also chose to follow Jesus, with absolutely no input from the Pearls at all. Isn’t that amazing?

:) We did have access to the Pearls’ materials. We tried to live their way, but in our opinion it conflicted too much with the Lord’s way. Our family is happier and healthier for having discarded most of Mr. and Mrs. Pearl’s ideas. Our children have decided to follow Jesus, and we follow Him together in grace, peace and love.

Perfect love casts out fear. Our children love and respect us, and we do require (and receive) obedience. They do not fear us, though. They have learned to fear the Lord, and that is of much greater value to me.

I am assuming that you (TG) were mentioned in the newsletter referenced above? Is there a link to that online? I am wondering why the Pearl’s would need to mention your site in their newsletter (call me naiive if you must).

Cathy, I am sorry to read your seemingly spiteful comment to TG – it reads as though you think your way is spiritually superior to TG’s. What a blessing that your children are well behaved. It is good for us to remember that we are not saved by our behavior, but by Grace from a God mighty to forgive all our sins.

The article is available on the Pearls website, if you click the “download pdf newsletter” tab. It’s titled, “The Google Attacks.”

Of TG and others like her, the Pearls say things in their article like,

“…BUT these negative remarks are hurting YOU and all other young families with children. These outspoken, uninformed critics are attacking YOUR rights every time they get on the web and speak out against us or any advocates for a godly family…”

“…Daily these anti-parent-rights people are writing negative things about Christians who teach Biblical parenting. Many Christians have been so inundated with the world that they have joined the anti-family critics speaking against NGJ and other ministries…”

Pearl counsels his readers to write words to TG’s site and the other ones in order to “cancel out” the words of the critics. He warns,

“ONLY a FEW emotionally immature and intellectually depraved critics writing a few lines a week can change your children’s future…”

Then he shares four websites, including this one, that are big instigators.

What is frustrating is that Michael Pearl doesn’t understand. No one here (or on similar sites) is criticizing Biblical parenting. What we have done is question whether or not Pearl’s definition of “Biblical” is actually Biblical. And many of us are coming to a place where the answer is resoundingly, “No.”

Just as Michael Pearl has the write to preach loudly against everything he sees as not Biblical, using no uncertain terms, so should we have the right to voice concerns and questions.

God is infallible, but the Pearls are fallible humans just like the rest of us. We have the right to be Bereans. Pearl is accusing all who disagree with his interpretation as “unbiblical,” “decieved,” and minces no words in so doing. He has called the owner of this blog “emotionally immature” and “intellectually depraved.” Wow. Because TG doesn’t agree with him, he uses such language?

He is exhibiting behavior that is very concerning—equating his word with God’s word, his opinions with God’s opinions. Where is the humility? Paul did not chastise the Bereans for not agreeing with him, rather, he PRAISED them! Unlike the others, the Bereans actually went to the Scriptures “to see if these things be so.”

If someone follows the Pearls, that is their business. But I am one used to follow their teachings and purchased my fair share of their materials (and handed them out with passion). With GREAT sorrow, I truly believe my children were (unintentionally!) harmed in the process.

We didn’t leave the Pearls because we became “anti-family,” as Michael Pearl says dissenters are. I left the Pearls teachings because I was watching them *hurt* my family. :(

Did the training methods “work?” Oh yeah, they TOTALLY worked. But whether or not you can get a dog to jump through a hoop (or a kid to sit on a blanket sweetly) has NOTHING to do with whether you are nurturing a young heart for God. NOTHING.

Pearl teaches a method of behavioral conditioning that has NOTHING to do with the proverbs, a method that the best animal trainers advocate against with ANIMALS, for goodness sake. Pearl may mean well, may truly believe he is following God (and I do believe he does mean well and believes he is teaching truth), but that doesn’t mean he’s right. No man is above being questioned.

Just as Michael Pearl has the right to speak out, so do I. I do not call him names and run down his integrity, though he engages in that practice frequently himself. I just disagree with the way he is interpreting Scripture. I do not believe that he is infallible.

There is a *reason* that many people are warning others about the Pearls, and it’s not because we’ve all left the one true faith. It’s because we tried the Pearls methods and left the camp after seeing our children harmed, and after studying the Scriptures and seeing them talk about a Father who parents His children WAY differently then the way Pearl tells us to parent.

With sorrow,
Molly
Mom of Five

The Pearls do NOT require the glory when their suggested Biblical methods are pursued. Please do a reality check on your motives here, TulipGirl. What Mike & Debi do is suggest Biblical training. You need to give glory where glory is due and that is to God. Please stop wasting your time criticizing the Pearls.

jj,

I have a few respectful questions. What is Biblical about their training methods? (It seems to me that they take one proverb and then interpret it to mean a great many things that the proverb itself actually doesn’t say).

Does God parent me by such training methods, swatting me whenever I touch anything He decides is an arbitrary no-no? Does God demand first-time obedience from me? Does God punish me whenever I fail to obey instantly? Is God 100% consistant with that punishment?

With love,
Molly

Molly,

I believe God’s order of righteousness is a heirarchy. He parents(trains) us and we are to parent(train) our children. The Bible being the handbook of instruction for both. It is my proven experience that the essence of struggle for the Christian is that between the spirit within us that is in alignment with the Spirit of God (made in His image) and our flesh. The Biblical approach that the Pearls use, is to teach the child to control their fleshy desires while young so that when they are older they will more readily make good decisions. I am not naive and do realize there is self will etc. there can be bad decisions made, that is a given. The objective is to train the child to KNOW authority and KNOW when their flesh is trying to rule as opposed to a righteous decision. I have seen two generations raised, some with the Pearl approach and some without. The fruit is showing up more readily in the group with the “Spare the rod, spoil the child” group.
Thanks for your time on this.
Julie

Thanks for your thoughts, jj.

(That link didn’t come through :oops: Ways non- NGJ may turn out. We’ll see if that works? :roll: Thank you for your grace… )

One thing I find curious is that when it comes to biblical parenting, conversation almost always goes to the topic of corporal punishment. Surely, there is more to parenting than just spanking. Seems to me that there are other biblical mandates in parenting that ought to be given just as much consideration.

Spanking is not a panacea.

Colleen, do you spank your foster children?

There is not one command in Scripture to spank our children. There are plenty of commands to discipline them, train them, teach them, guide them… but not a single command to spank them. The mandate seems pretty darn clear to me.

I often wonder how many Pearl devotees have really done some deep thinking about their theology. The Pearls teach that spanking removes the guilt of sin from a child. That is straight up HERESY! Doesn’t that bother anyone?

Its from To Train Up a Child. I’ll see if I can find it in context…

The parent holds in his hand (in the form of a little switch) the power to absolve the child of guilt, cleanse his soul, instruct his spirit, strengthen his resolve, and give him a fresh start through a confidence that all indebtedness is paid (43).

This is one of the many questions I have regarding whether or not the Pearl’s teaching is actually Biblical. (I did not think these things through when I was a Pearl follower—again, I truly had the best of intentions, and I think the Pearls do, too).

But the above quote is worth being a Berean about. If punishment works like Pearl says it does, then why did God need to send Jesus? He could have just kept on going with the Law, certainly a system of reward and punishment hardly different philosophically than what the Pearls teach. The Law’s system of reward and punishment would have been perfect for cleansing and healing our souls and helping us achieve right-standing with God through its newness of life.

Warmly and Respectfully,
Molly, Mom of Five,
Former Pearl follower

Has anyone ever met children that were spanked that didn’t turn out ok? I have. Spanking doesn’t save a child from sin. Only the blood of Jesus can.

And I firmly believe in discipline, but discipline can mean a variety of things, it doesn’t neccessarily have to mean SPANK! I believe in spanking as a form of discipline but there are also other methods which may prove to be far more effective depending on the age of the child and the situation. Resorting to JUST spanking isn’t really finding the best way to discipline.

Also the Bible states that the parent who loves their child is “Careful to Discipline”. Being “careful to discipline” is not just spanking for any offense. It is genuinely looking at the best way to guide your child in the way of the Lord. Sometimes that may be spanking and many times it is not.

Thank you Cally for the reference, and thank you Molly for your comment as well.

I don’t spank my foster children. It’s against the law.

The Bible teaches to use the rod. We are told multiple times in Proverbs to use the “rod”. In Isaiah 10:15 the “rod” is associated with “ax”, “saw”, and a “club”. So that leaves no question of what the word “rod” means. It is not symbolic of discipline. In Proverbs 23:13-14 it tell us that a child will not die if you punish him with the rod. Why would him dying be a concern…? Could that mean a severe spanking? I think it’s pretty clear. Proverbs 23:14 says “Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.” How does beating our children deliver their souls from hell? How can we deliver our children’s souls from hell if Christ’s blood does that? Think about it…it makes sense, it’s clear, it is mandated.

I think you remove the guilt when you use the rod. This is so clear to me because of the differences in my children whom I can spank and those I cannot. The ones I can spank, which include an adopted 10 year old whom had many discipline problems when we got him at age 9, show a whole different attitude when I spank vs. those who have to seethe in their “timeouts”. I have a 9 year old whom I cannot spank. We have had him almost as long as our 10 year old. They had similar problems. The 9 year old still deals with his issues of disobedience every day. The 10 year old doesn’t. I have seen this many times as a foster parent.

I have been a spanker since I have had kids. I would have spanked regardless of the Pearls’ teachings. My parents lovingly spanked me and my siblings. It was never abuse. All 3 of my siblings have grown to love the Lord and have a successful life as well as I. How do you explain that if spanking is so wrong? I agree that some children turn out wrong regardless of the use of the rod. There are a lot of factors at work in training a child. And I also think that other methods in addition to spanking work. Spanking is the most effective and more importantly, Biblical.

Also, just because the Pearls teach on this subject doesn’t mean they are the only ones who advocate it. Millions of parents spank. Many authors and Christian leaders advocate corporal punishment. It is not about what is popular; it’s about what the Bible teaches.

Well-behaved children is not the goal: transformed hearts is the goal. Why do we as parents think that good behavior is the be-all and end-all?

Good behavior can mask all sorts of rebellion that lurks beneath the surface

The goal is a transformed heart, and only continual application of God’s Word can produce that.

One more excerpt(same website)…

What about “Christians” who abuse their children?

Most of us have seen at least one news media report where some person or group that claims to be “Christian” was being investigated for what appears to be genuine child abuse. I’ve seen a few news reports like this over the years. I have also seen some of the “don’t spank” advocates point to those stories as examples of why they are right, and we are wrong. The problem is that they’re comparing apples and oranges. When considering the whole counsel of God on this matter, it is clear that He in no way sanctioned the physical or mental abuse of their children. The people who engage in this kind of abuse are acting outside of what God says they should be doing. Pointing to them as examples of what the Bible teaches and what Christians in general are doing is highly misleading. The overwhelming majority of Christian parents do not engage in abuse of their children. When real abuse does occur, it occurs with people of all religions. If you are discerning, you won’t be deceived by these misleading tactics.

For those who are looking for guidance from experienced parents who use these God mandated teaching, training and discipline methods, seek guidance from the ones who have well-behaved, respectful, God-fearing children. Get opinions from several Christian parents who obey God on these matters if you can. Children can be so different, so a variety of opinions can be helpful. Some of our children were very compliant children from the get-go. Others had (and still do have) very strong wills and are much more of a challenge to parent. Try to find parents who have children who’s personalities are similar to your own children.

In addition to talking with experienced parents, approach your parenting like you would a earning college degree. Educate yourself, and keep up-to-date as your children grow older and their personalities, training and discipline needs change. We have found the following resources to be excellent ones and highly recommend them to others.

Dear Colleen,

Thank you for sharing your perspective and experiences.

As a mother of six who deeply desires to raise our children in a way pleasing to the Lord, we carefully read and implemented the teachings of the Pearls. And our experience was to watch our children become motivated by fear (not love), watch our relationships become superficial, and hearts slowly wither. For us, in our home, we needed to embrace a Biblical model of parenting that nurtured vibrant, genuine relationships.

As highlighted at the Southern Baptist’s Pastor’s Conference, Grace-Based Parenting offers “a parenting style that mirrors God’s love, reflects His forgiveness, and displaces fear as a motivator for behavior.”

Seeking to foster an environment that emulates God’s heart, one where our children are receptive to the Holy Spirit, we endeavor to no longer focus on outward behavior, on “image management” or becoming “checklist” parents.

Considering 1 Peter 4:10 : “Each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others, faithfully administering God’s grace in its various forms”, we take God at His Word and choose to administer His grace to our children…..

We believe it to be a Biblical truth that foundation of life is at the Heart level, not a superificial behavior level and bad behavior may be corrected with grace forms of discipline.

Conservative Christian author Ted Kimmel posits that, “Grace-based parenting accepts children regardless of merit, serves their needs without a sense of obligation and motivates them to a higher holiness without condemnation.”

As a family, we are learning that our parenting goal is not as low as simple good behavior, but “true greatness is a passionate love for Jesus Christ that shows itself in an unquenchable love and concern for others,” (Kimmel, Grace-Based Parenting). That keeps us on our knees. For is only by His grace…

Again, thank you for sharing your experiences, Colleen. And thank you for respectfully hearing that for our family, the Pearl’s teaching was detrimental to the souls of our children. And that there are other Christian parenting models that are deeply Biblical, that nurture genuine relationship, and lead all hearts ever closer to the revolutionary Grace of the Cross of Christ.

Every blessing, sister….

All’s grace,

Ann

It’s very important to remember that we must interpret the Bible consistantly. If we are certain that the proverbs must be taken literally, that is fine, but please be consistant and take them ALL literally. Eat gravel, put a knife to your throat, etc, LITERALLY. It’s not right to pull out the rod verses and take *them* literally, while taking all the rest of the Proverbs figuratively.

In my opinion, the Proverbs are intended as wisdom statements. Other Scriptures clearly tell us that punishment does not actually rid us of guilt. Hebrews does a fantastic job of showing us that, and Galatians does an equally impressive job of showing us that reward-and-punishment systems do NOT produce righteousness. In fact, following reward-and-punishment systems for our righteousness means we have “fallen from grace,” according to Galatians 5. Romans tells us that the Law (reward-and-punishment sytems) only serve to make sin abound, not abate.

My point is that in interpreting Proverbs the Pearl way, we have to completely ignore maaaaaany other passages of Scripture. I don’t think that’s being a Berean, and it’s not fair to our children either.

No one is saying to discount the Proverbs on the rod. The question is are the Pearls rightly interpreting them? If we are going to say that the rod cleanses a soul and saves the soul from Hell, we have to cut out a whole lot of the New Testament. Either the New Testament is wrong, or maybe we’re interpreting the proverb wrong.

These aren’t anti-Pearl questions at all, but very honest questions that are fair to ask. The Pearls are teaching something that is contrary to the teachings of the New Testament. Again, I think that the Pearls have good intentions. But when Romans, Hebrews, Galatians, and more don’t agree with them, it’s fair to want to be a Berean and search the Scriptures carefully.

Warmly,
Molly, Mom of Five
Former Pearl Follower

It’s very important to remember that we must interpret the Bible consistantly. If we are certain that the proverbs must be taken literally, that is fine, but please be consistant and take them ALL literally. Eat gravel, put a knife to your throat, etc, LITERALLY. It’s not right to pull out the rod verses and take *them* literally, while taking all the rest of the Proverbs figuratively.

In my opinion, the Proverbs are intended as wisdom statements. Other Scriptures clearly tell us that punishment does not actually rid us of guilt. Hebrews does a fantastic job of showing us that, and Galatians does an equally impressive job of showing us that reward-and-punishment systems do NOT produce righteousness. In fact, following reward-and-punishment systems for our righteousness means we have “fallen from grace,” according to Galatians 5. Romans tells us that the Law (reward-and-punishment sytems) only serve to make sin abound, not abate.

My point is that in interpreting Proverbs the Pearl way, we have to completely ignore maaaaaany other passages of Scripture. I don’t think that’s being a Berean, and it’s not fair to our children either.

No one is saying to discount the Proverbs on the rod. The question is are the Pearls rightly interpreting them? If we are going to say that the rod cleanses a soul and saves the soul from Hell, we have to cut out a whole lot of the New Testament. Either the New Testament is wrong, or maybe we’re interpreting the proverb wrong.

These aren’t anti-Pearl questions at all, but very honest questions that are fair to ask. The Pearls are teaching something that is contrary to the teachings of the New Testament. Again, I think that the Pearls have good intentions. But when Romans, Hebrews, Galatians, and more don’t agree with them, it’s fair to want to be a Berean and search the Scriptures carefully.

Warmly,
Molly, Mom of Five
Former Pearl Follower

Links about Behaviorism:

http://www.wagntrain.com/OC/

http://chiron.valdosta.edu/whuitt/col/behsys/operant.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning

colleen,

i am genuinely curious to learn how you determine that Proverbs 23:14 (“Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.”) is a mandate, but Prov 23:2 (And put a knife to thy throat, if thou [be] a man given to appetite.) is “pretty far off”.

any thoughts?

Thank you, Colleen, you make an interesting point: There are several proverbs that repeat the same vivid imagery.

While the knife to the throat command might seem a bit extreme, it is only a little more extreme than the scripture that says to pluck out your right eye if it offends you.

You hesitate to interpret the knife scripture literally. However, we can’t pick and choose, we can’t “favorite” the rod verses but draw back from the knife verses.

Since suicide is unbiblical, as you noted, we must guide our interpretation of the knife verse, keeping that in mind.

Therefore, overeaters who take the scriptures seriously can put a knife to their throat, but avoid cutting the jugular vein. Just as you probably don’t use a real, biblical-sized rod on your children, perhaps it would be ok to find a knife that would hurt but not cut the skin too deeply.

If you do this without fail each and every time you overeat, I promise you will quickly conclude that second helpings are not worth it. Any weight problem you might have had that was related to overeating will lift. Any health problem related to overeating will lift. The chaos associated with yoyo dieting will be a thing of the past, making mealtimes less tense and your home will be calmer.

You must be wondering if I’m being serious–or if I am crazy.

However, I believe that we MUST interpret these Proverbs even-handedly. I am serious about that. If it is correct to interpret the rod scriptures in the way you describe or that webpage you linked to describes, then we must stand ready to take these other Proverbs at face value as well and not shrink from what they are telling us.

Think about it, at any rate.

Let me give you another example.

Proverbs 20:17: “Bread obtained by falsehood is sweet to a man, But afterward his mouth will be filled with gravel.”

How do you interpret this?

I used to work in a grocery store bakery, and when I would come in at 6 AM, I would often find empty packages of out-of-code sweet rolls lying around. The night crew were habitual pilferers.

None of them ever mentioned having a problem with gravel filling their mouths.

Was that because they stole sweet rolls, not bread? Or did they fear to mention the gravel because then everyone would know they were stealing bread?

No–I don’t think so. While I beleive in the truth of scripture, there has to be another way to interpret Proverbs. And there is.

Proverbs are like Truth Concentrate. They often contain vivid and/or exaggerated word pictures which deliver the underlying axiomatic truth in a very memorable way.

The point is not whether the gravel–or the knife–or the rod–or the stripes–are literal. The point is these word pictures have important truths behind them that teach morals or tell us about the way the world works.

And regardless of where any of us happen to stand on the issue of spanking–every person in these threads as far as I know believes strongly that children must be *disciplined* and must learn to respect their parents’ authority. Just like the scriptures teach.

It would be great to clear away the false assumptions that so often hamper this kind of discussion so that we can dialogue about concerns people have about Mr. Pearl’s material rather than imagined concerns. It’s not really about spanking, even if we do interpret Proverbs differently.

You may find we have false assumptions, too. If so…let’s talk!

(And even though I just said this isn’t REALLY about spanking…I do still challenge you change your hermeneutical approach when you interpret the Rod verses and then change back to the standard hermeneutical approach when you read other proverbs. :wink: )

Michael and Debi Pearl….perfect?? No. But they do bring Christians back to the teaching of God’s word time and time again. They are persecuted for righteousness’ sake.

I have read and implemented their books in my life and have been blessed, knowing that much (not all) of their teaching lines up with God’s Word.

We are so often blinded by our cultural eyes that we can’t see the truth when it’s on the page in front of us. I charge you to prayerfully re-read and reconsider what Michael and Debi Pearl are teaching. Ask the Holy Spirit to remove any bias that you might have and to reveal only His truth through His Word. I believe that if you can do that, you will end the persecution.

Hi All ~ Great discussion. My husband and I love the Pearls! They have been such a blessing to us and our family. We have such sweet fellowship with our children. We thank God for them and pray that they will continue to be faithful through this trial.

I am really disturbed by the fact that there are folks posting here who truly are not disturbed by the Pearls’ heretical teachings on the nature of man, the atonement of Christ, and the imputation of His righteousness to us. Is it that you’ve never really thought about it (I didn’t pick up on it the first time I read TTUAC) or do you just agree with their teachings?

Michael Pearl encourages women to take their child molester husbands back into their homes after they’ve “served their time,” for crying out loud! If the heresy doesn’t bother you, you’d think THAT might get your attention.

Persecuted for righteousness’ sake? Are we really going there? They are lucky they didn’t publish TTUAC when they were actually raising their kids! Then they really would’ve been “persecuted.”

Dear friends,

Discussing and disagreeing with people’s interpretation of the Bible is not the same thing as persecution. We should not make light of the deaths of our brothers and sisters who have been tortured and killed for their faith.

What many of us are doing here is being Bereans, asking whether or not the Pearls teachings are Biblical or are on shaky ground. Paul did not cry, “persecution,” when the Bereans checked his sermons with the Scriptures—instead, he commended them and called them noble examples for us all.

Surely we, as moms who *all* obviously have a love for God and a love for our families, can foster an environment where it’s okay to be like the Bereans and carefully examine the authoritative teachings of others.

Please here me and understand that I *loved* the Pearls. I fought for them. I defended them when I thought they were being attacked on many blogs, including this one.

A few years later, I now find myself among the moms raising voices of concern. It’s not because I have left the Bible but because I began reading my Bible more carefully.

In the end, we all may continue to disagree. But disagreeing with others is not persecution. I fully believe that the Pearls are doing what they think is best and that their intentions are as honest and good as can be. But good intentions do not make a person infallible. Only God is infallible. We do the Pearls no favors when we set them up in the place of God.

A dear friend of mine, one who was also a Pearl mom just like me, wrote this as she began to question her trust in the Pearls teaching. She is gentle and gracious and loving as she presents valid concerns about the Pearls teaching:
http://aholyexperience.com/2006/04/perfectionism.html

Warmly and respectfully,
Molly, Mom of Five
Former Pearl Parent

To the above comments about putting a knife to your throat, does anyone know someone who has taken that literally? I don’t, but I do know many people from all walks of life who use corporal punishment. If it is the wrong way to discipline, why does Proverbs make such a big deal about it?

Many people from all walks of life do not follow the bible. But Proverbs isn’t making a big deal about spanking, it’s making a big deal about discipline and I think it’s obvious why discipline is important.

But I have a better question for you. If the rod verses are a biblical mandate to spank, why don’t Orthodox Jews spank their children? In fact, in Orthodox circles you’ll hear the saying “If you must hit a child, let it be with a shoelace”. They follow the same Old Testament, and the same Proverbs, and yet, they understand that the point is strong discipline, not corporal punishment.

When talking of the rod(and staff)giving comfort, I think it means the Word of God guiding us.

So it’s okay to interpret the “rod” of that scripture as the Bible, but not okay to interpret the “rod” of Proverbs as discipline?

It gives a child comfort in the same way; having a rod guiding a child. Many think of using a rod on a child as a torturous thing, but I know that it is actually comforting to a child to have his boundaries clear.

And if you see the “rod” as the guiding force of good discipline (not necessarily spanking, I agree with you.

For instance, my child may not know what electric shock is and may be too young to understand to not chew on an electrical cord of a lamp and I am not going to let him make the association on his own as some would suggest, but he can understand the pain of a switching with a firm “no”. A firm “no” will not be associated negatively in his brain if he doesn’t experience pain.

Upon what do you base this statement? I guarantee that there are ways to teach children without the use of pain.

Tell me, why didn’t Jesus hit the apostles? He had authority over them, and they were constantly screwing up. Why didn’t he hit the adulteress, or the Samaritan woman? I hear what you’re saying about fear, but the bible says that we are to fear God, not our parents, and Jesus taught us that the Kingdom of heaven belongs to children, that they should come to him, and that what we do to a child, we do to him.

Some might suggest to condition him by taking him away from the cord or simply telling him “no”. Is that not also conditioning? And what would he learn from that? NOTHING!

With very young children, yes, redirection is highly effective as they are easily distracted. Older children often need a consequence for their action, and a good parent will provide that. And that will teach them something, but without the use of corporal punishment.

I am never surprised to see that moms and dads who don’t spank have a hard time controlling(and yes I think they need to control) their unruly children.

I don’t have unruly children. Last week I flew twice. With five children. By myself. I could see the flight attendants cringe a bit when I walked on the plane. When I got off, no less than 3 people complimented me on my well behaved children. And I did it all without switching or spanking.

Discipline can be accomplished without hitting. And if it can, why not try it? Or at the very least, stop telling me that spanking is the only way when it’s clearly not.

They are the ones whose children run in the streets and don’t come the first time when called. They are the ones who have their parents on a leash. The parents, without recognizing it, give their children whatever they want in an effort to appease them.

What you’re discussing is not parents who don’t spank, but parents who don’t discipline, and that’s not what’s being argued here. No one here has said that one should stop disciplining. This is simple fear mongering, and not true.

The Pearls’ methods are straight forward, not harsh, proven, and doctrinally sound. They back up what they teach with the Bible(as they interpret it).

The Pearl’s methods are not straight forward, can be quite harsh (push the kid in the water, touch their hand to a hot stove, switch the baby to keep it from wanting it’s mother), and are heretical (switching to remove sin and guilt from a child instead of the blood of Christ. It is backed up by scriptures taken out of context, and misapplied, and given the Pearls own interpretation. On top of that they encourage women to stay with abusive men, and keep sexual molesters in the home so long as they repent (which sexual predators are happy to do if it keeps them near their victims).

When reading the Pearl’s material, proceed at your own risk, and that of your children.

Colleen, your argument from Scripture has changed. You are now saying it is ok to pick and choose how to apply a verse according to your taste and your sub-culture.

I will have to stop and think about whether I think that is a valid way to approach God’s word. It sounds very liberal to me.

Colleen, no, I am not suggesting that child molesters aren’t capable of repentance, but the facts are that MOST of them, even those who are sorry for what they’ve done, have a very difficult time controlling themselves. Do you know what recidivism is? Its the likelihood that they will molest again. Pedophilia has an extremely high rate of recidivism. I’m sorry, but if you molest a child, I don’t care how sorry you say you are. You aren’t getting anywhere near my children. Period. End of story. I’m not going to risk my children, my neighbor’s children, my grandchildren or YOUR children. You foster kids, for pete’s sake! Don’t you know about this stuff? There is a reason why you get notified when a sex offender moves into your neighborhood!

Please read Anne’s reply to you above. She answered all of your objections very well.

This has nothing to do with repentance. It has nothing to do with forgiveness. It has to do with safety and, frankly, child molestation is certainly biblical grounds for a divorce. The Pearls are right when they say that God hates divorce, but that doesn’t mean that he doesn’t permit it.

And what about their heresy? Can you please address those issues?

Persecution is not always burning at the stake or beheading. It takes many, many forms. Often times it is in the form of verbal (or written) words.

My real concern here is this…When we, as Christians, bicker amongst one another and side with the world’s philosophies of child rearing, directly contradicting God’s methods (ie. the rod,) how can we expect to maintain the freedoms we have in our country. Aren’t there enough ultra-liberal, psycho babble following secularists who wish to ban spanking altogether? DO we really need other Christians trying to rob us of our Biblical mandate to use the rod to impart wisdom and “drive foolishness” from our children’s hearts?

The bottom line is that God’s word says that the rod is the means for correcting our children: not words, not timeouts, not taking away the Wii. It’s the rod. If God’s word says it, I follow it and trust it to be the best He has for us.

If you’re not sure about the literal vs. figurative interpretation of a word, such as rod, go to the original text and find that word and its verbage. Compare it with every other time that the word is used in the Bible. You will find consistency.

If we don’t believe GOd’s word in its entirety, we can’t believe it at all. Live it all or not at all.

Hello – I really need to stop getting your posts – they are filling up my box. You are not posting my blog, so I am not sure you are even getting this, but I need some help. Thank you,
Jj

“If we don’t believe GOd’s word in its entirety, we can’t believe it at all. Live it all or not at all.”

Amy, no one does… no one… except Jesus Christ. Don’t flatter yourself that you do. I certainly don’t flatter myself that I do.

That is why Christians need the gospel too. We’d be better off not to assume in, especially in our own lives.

[...] dominionist/fundamentalist family whose controversial child-rearing techniques, along with tulipgirl and boycottcity.org, which is now shut down. I wrote about the Michael and Debbie Pearl child [...]

I am a Catholic mother of 6 (soon 7) children, and I do not spank. My oldest child is nearly 19, and I can assure you that he is a fine young man with a true relationship with the Lord. My children are not running wild, as Colleen suggests they will do if one does not spank. None of them have ever said they hate me, and they certainly are not their own bosses.

For a Catholic perspective on this issue, I recommend this article: Ten Reasons I Can’t Spank: A Catholic Counselor’s Critical Examination
of Corporal Punishment by Gregory Popcak. http://nospank.net/popcak.htm

Hi Colleen, thank you so much for that wonderful note. I really appreciate the care and prayer that went into it. Thank you for “listening”.

What grieves me is when people set up “sides” and refuse to listen to one another, even erecting special roadblocks such as mischaracterizing the views of the people on the other side.

We Christians grumble when the press misrepresents our views or when in the name of “balanced reporting” the reporter provides a quote from the wackiest proponent he can find instead of a solid, well-respected one. I think we need to be careful we’re not doing that to each other.

Along those lines, please say something if you feel someone has misunderstood your true views or is operating under a false assumption. I’ve been extremely frustrated throughout these types of threads that the assumption is that Pearl’s books are criticized on account of people being against spanking.

In our country we may have freedom of speech, but to an increasing degree we are losing the art of working through a difference of opinion in a productive and edifying way. These conversations are not “bickering”; they are–or can be–useful dialogues.

I thank you very much that you have cared enough to listen.

I hope you have heard that both spankers and non-spankers have issues with the Pearls’ ideas and practices. Some of the issues include concerns about Mr. Pearl’s doctrine of sin and salvation. Some of the issues include Mr. Pearl’s disrespectful tone when talking about children.

For me a big one is the strangeness of many incidents described with approval in their writing. I mention again the incident Mr. Pearl writes approvingly of where his wife repeatedly struck a two year old with a plastic toy. I feel that was a ludicrous way to handle the situation and demeaning to all three people involved. Perhaps today, Mr. Pearl would be able to think of another, better way to handle that situation. But it doesn’t seem so as more current stories continue to exalt a “I’m a bigger, more persistent bully than you, you little pipsqueak” approach over simple, normal authority.

I wanted to add that all but one of my children are grown up and I’m very proud of them.

[...] is limited to the new visitors to TulipGirl.com who have stopped by thanks to the mention in the No Greater Joy Magazine July/August 2008 issue published by Michael and Debi Pearl. All those new visitors who have commented on various [...]

I, too, want to thank Colleen and Kathy for giving us a great example to follow on how to humbly and gently discuss difficult and emotional topics. Beautiful.

Heather, I agree that we should look to the bible, but as we’ve said, Proverbs are wise sayings like “A stitch in time saves nine.”, “An apple a day keeps the doctor away”, or “Early to bed, early to rise, makes a man healthy wealthy and wise.”

Proverbs definition ~ “short statement of wisdom or advice that has passed into general use.

The Proverbs were meant to teach us something, not to be applied literally or as a law or commandment.

So, knowing that, are the Proverbs telling us to discipline or beat our children with a stick? Considering that the Orthodox Jews don’t spank, and that in studying the rod it can also be an instrument with which one gives guidance or measurement, it seems perfectly reasonable to say that the Proverbs are teaching us the importance of discipline.

And just because I reject the teachings of the Pearl’s doesn’t mean I don’t discipline.

-Anne Basso
Age 31
Proud Mother to 5 beautiful and well behaved children whom I adore. ;)

I’ve really appreciated the ongoing and encouraging conversation here, especially as I’ve had very little computer time in the past week. I have to echo others who have pointed out the gracious give-and-take of the dialogue especially between Colleen and Kathy.

Heather, glad you’ve joined in! You’ve brought up some ideas that have at least in part been discussed in depth in this thread. . . I’d encourage you to read through it (I know, 80 comments is a lot!).

Grace and peace,
TG

Hey TG, my friend! You are quite the popular one this week, aren’t you?

Well you know with my background I simply must respond.

You want to talk fruits of a parenting? Let’s compare and contrast myself with…oh MY PARENTS. My mother is a faithful and avid reader of NGJ. She adores the Pearls and when I first became a mother made it very clear that to be a good mother I needed to adhere to their methods as well.

While I was not raised specifically by TTUAC because it was not yet written, I was raised in that same method, in that same Christian culture and my mother certainly does adhere to TTUAC methods with the 5 she is currently raising.

So, let’s see. Mom has 3 adult children and 1 on the verge with which to judge her parenting. Oh but wait, she doesn’t speak to her adult children anymore. We’re too dysfunctional and of this world now for her to have time for. And, for our own part, we happen to believe she should have been locked up for her selfish parenting and her child abuse…oh, that’s right, the Pearls call it Biblical parenting. My sister’s therapist recently called it battery acid. I thought that was a good description.

So, my mother has 3 thriving healthy adult children whom she has no contact with whatsoever. She has 8 (with a 9th on the way) grandchildren, all of which she is forbidden to have any contact with. Her 17 year old is desperately waiting to finish high school next year so he can get out of her house and has NO intention of speaking to her once he leaves. Her 14 year old hates her and tells me this via emails when she gets a chance. Her 12 year old…well, he’s attempted to run away repeatedly now. Verdict is still out on the 11 and 10 year olds. But, to be quite honest, that’s not a track record I would want for my parenting of 8 children. At least 5 either have no contact or openly state they will have no contact once they are old enough to leave her home.

Good, Pearl Biblical parenting at work for you, ladies. I lived it. I should know.

Meanwhile, I suscribe to a gentler, more loving parenting style. I prefer to parent as if Jesus were actively watching me and actively reminding me that I must be like a child to enter the Kingdom myself.

My children are amazing. I don’t just say this as a proud mother. My youngest son’s therapist informed me Thursday he’s NEVER met children like mine. Church members weep to see the beauty of my children. Heck, I weep to see the beauty that God has blessed me with in these children.

Oh, therapist you say. Yes, see my youngest son is still a fosterchild. He has huge demons in his heart and soul still. We’re still fighting. No, we’re not waiting for the countdown until we can spank him. We’re fighting to help him heal.

And, here is the TRUE mark of my children for you. This week, my son’s therapist told us to give up on him. Told us the cost to save him will be too great for the other children to pay.

Being good parents, we discussed this with the other children. Afterall, the fight to save and heal this one will take the largest toll on these children. I honestly expected at least a few of the children to say yes, we must give up.

They didn’t. And, they had no reason to feel they had to say something *we* expected, because we are honestly weak and fragile and aren’t sure we can help this child heal.

Nope. My children clearly demonstrated the love of Christ in a way I had forgotten in the trenches with this hurting child. They unanimously told us we MUST carry on. They LOVE him, even though they know he does not love them. And, as far as they are concerned, his life is worth what it will cost them. Furthermore didn’t we, mommy and daddy, remember that this is precisely what Jesus would have us do? This is what Jesus wanted us to do And, no matter how naughty and difficult this child is, Jesus still loves him and we must too.

I’m not a perfect parent. Far from it, honestly. But, I didn’t spank this fruit of the Spirit into my children. I showed them by example what it means to live a life in the shadow of the Cross. And, they have choosen to find their own path to that Cross and to live a life always concious of what their Savior would have them do. I didn’t stand and attempt to BE their Savior, as Pearl would tell us we should. I merely allowed my life to be an example to point the way to that Cross. Their Savior found them, each and every one of them, he claimed them and they have chosen to follow HIM, not me, HIM.

And, unlike Micheal Pearl, when my children went to that Cross to find their Savior, they never found me there telling them I represented their Savior. They found a merciful and loving God one they have choosen to follow. And, today, one they have choosen to remain in obedience to even at a high cost to themselves to fight for the heart of a little brother who has never known true love and true committment and safety before entering this home and being surrounded by these siblings.

Now, I’m sorry. But, for me the question of whether to follow Micheal Pearl or my Christ is a very simple answer. I look at my parents who followed Pearl and I see the fruits of their labors. And, I look at my children, whom have been raised with the love and mercy that a forgiving and protective Creator would have them raised in. I see fruits in my children which humble me. I see hearts in tune with their Creator in ways I can only wish to be. And, I realize quite simply that Micheal Pearl has missed the mark.

Hurting children? Yup, missing the mark and deciding to be the Savior for your children is definitely hurting children. I should know. I was one of those children hurt by this parenting method.

Hello Anne,

I understand your position, but there is just one question I must ask you. :?: What is the rule or guideline by which you judge whether or not a verse or book (or the entire Bible) is to be taken literally or figuratively? In other words, what is the standard you use to interpret the Scriptures? I use the standard of taking a passage literally, unless the passage itself says that it is a parable. I do not mean this to be offensive, but you seem to be watering down the Word of God. There are so many stories in His Word where God killed bully children and commanded parents to stone rebellious and disobedient sons and daughters. In the Old Testament God did not show mercy and grace, only judgement and commandments. *Before* Christ gave Himself up as the final sacrifice, the Israelites were preforming under the law and God was showing direct and instant punishment for their sins. *Since* the death of Christ, we are now living under mercy and grace, and will be judged in Heaven, not on this earth. The point that I am getting at is this: God is a JUST God, and when a child who knows right from wrong chooses to do wrong, God cannot turn His head, and in the OT He DID NOT. Even though we are under a different system today (grace), there is still meant to be authority in our homes and consequences for wrong, in order to save them from a greater consequence when they die and stand before God. I’m not saying that spanking is always the only way to discipline our children. I have spanked my oldest child maybe twice in his whole life, and my youngest not even once. However, training and discipline every moment of their childhood is vital to bringing them up in the Lord. Perhaps we partially agree on discipline today, but what you are failing to grasp is the fact that in the OT days God most certainly DID command and advocate parents to use a physical rod. We are not to take that to be our commandment for us TODAY, but it was meant to be literal for them THEN.

So we should APPLY it in principle, but UNDERSTAND that it was literal.

Again, thank you for your response, I am really enjoying this lively debate!

Heather Sharpe

I read the first page of your post on Hermeneutics and found nothing that I disagreed with…furthermore, it is all basic knowledge that my very intelligent Dad taught me my whole life.

It took me a while to finally read through this blog, rather than simply skipping through it, and I just realized that my arguments are falling on deaf ears. You are right, everything that I have said has been brought up by others and proven true by the Bible with CORRECT interpretation. You obviously have read and verbally adhere to hermeneutics, yet you continue to choose to interpret whole books and passages figuratively; therefore deriving a false interpretation that is not supported by the hermeneutics you claim to adhere to!

I am not at all meaning to offend or confront you, but I am respectfully backing out of this debate for the sole reason that the folks I’m trying to debate with are unmoving in their beliefs. At this point I fear not even the Word of God can change their convictions. But in the end all of God’s children will stand together, knowing the Truth and rejoicing in His grace. I look forward to that day! :grin:

God Bless You All!

Heather Sharpe

Heather: In the Old Testament God did not show mercy and grace, only judgement and commandments. *Before* Christ gave Himself up as the final sacrifice, the Israelites were preforming under the law and God was showing direct and instant punishment for their sins.

Um…. my husband and I are in the throes of the “to spank or not to spank” questions, and one thing he pointed out to me was how often in the OT the Lord gives his children *repeated* chances to repent.

Repeatedly He sends prophets to warn, famines to “get their attention,” etc. Do you realize how many generations of Jews God suffered long with before sending them into captivity? Not exactly “direct and instant punishment,” eh? And even then, He preserved a remnant…

I think my new favorite verse is Psalm 103:14, For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.

Kathy, that reminds me of a quote by author/scholar Samuel Martin:

“When parents sin, they ask God to forgive them, repent and know they are forgiven. When children sin, they are judged, tried, condemned and punished.”

TulipGirl,

I’m late to the party and it looks like have much to catch up on! Thanks for the link. I saw the article in NGJ a few weeks ago and shortly thereafter the notes to my inbox increased as well. It’s an issue people are still thinking about and still talking about. Thanks for keeping the converstation going.

Hey, I just wanted to leave my comment as a product of Pearl training. My 7 siblings and I were home schooled and trained with the Bible and the rod. I love and respect my parents, my siblings are my friends and I’m grateful for the way I was raised.
I’m now grown and wonderfully married. I apply the teachings of “created to be his helpmeet” to our marriage, much to my husband’s delight and my joy.
I celebrated the birth of my first child just four months ago and I look forward to training my children.
I’ve experienced much happiness as a result of the Pearl’s advice – they can’t be all bad!

Jo, thanks so much for sharing your heart and life with us! I am so sorry for the things that happened to you in your childhood, and the things that are happening to your younger siblings. :sad: I was raised very much the same way, back in the 60s and 70s, and I still bear the scars (deep mental scars, no lasting physical, by the Grace of God) and vowed NEVER to do that with my children. I almost fell into that trap when someone recommended I read TTUAC. Praise the Lord I saw the error of it before any lasting damage could be done!
Thanks again, TG, for allowing this wonderful discussion! :grin:
~Kathy

I would like to briefly share my story,

I was 14 years old and alarmed by what I saw in the churches. Not only were almost all the “Christian” children I knew misbehaved. As they began to grow older, they sloughed off into the world – addicted to sleezy TV, nintendo, and immodest clothes, among other things. If that was the way it had to be, I did not want kids. Then my parents purchased “To Train up a Child” at a second hand store. It changed our lives. It did not draw us closer to God – no, but it equipped my parents with the tools and the wisdom they needed to train my younger siblings. And me. Well, I got excited and became part of the process. I used “the rod” while babysitting when need be. And I loved my little brothers to death. In short, to this day, my brothers are among my best friends. They are now 11 and I am 25. When I call them they instantly come – always. When I go somewhere, they are almost always begging to come. They love games, helping with work, spending the night at my place – almost anything you can imagine. The key? A balance of love and discipline. You see, God commands us to fear Him throughout the entire Scripture. Without a fear of God, we cannot relate to Him as we are designed to. And yet, He also loves us so much He died for us. Many times in Scripture God calls believers “children” or “sons” or “daughters.” My best hope for raising my sons and daughters is to do it like God does with us. He punishes/disciplines sin. He sacrifices himself for us. He is the perfect balance of love and authority. I have much more I could say but time does not permit. I am not a Pearlite. But I will say that their child training materials are very biblical and they work. I can hardly wait to have my own children!

Jonathan,

OK, I’ll take the bait. The 2 week old has me up anyway, LOL.

Betimes:
1. In good time; early.
2. Once in a while; on occasion.
3. Quickly; soon.

You said One who loves his son chastens him betimes. But you also said God did give the Israelites repeated and long chances to repent before punishing them. However, once He sent them in to punishment, they were in it deep and long. Many years in fact. So… are you implying that God does not love His children? :twisted:

Or perhaps the definition of chasten needs further examination. What happens to your paradigm if chasten =/= punish??

[...] in the name of “no greater joy” and “first time obedience”? When will the Pearls take full responsibility for the harm of their teachings? When will Christian parents see through [...]