You Said Above:

“Um…. my husband and I are in the throes of the “to spank or not to spank” questions, and one thing he pointed out to me was how often in the OT the Lord gives his children *repeated* chances to repent.

Repeatedly He sends prophets to warn, famines to “get their attention,” etc. Do you realize how many generations of Jews God suffered long with before sending them into captivity? Not exactly “direct and instant punishment,” eh? And even then, He preserved a remnant…

That was not my paradigm. It was yours. I was suggesting that your analogy of the Jews and God was not consistent because it contradicts “chastening betimes.” So here is a question for you. Instead of discussing the meaning of words and what chasten or punish or discipiline means, let us answer this. Is spanking UNBIBLICAL and if so why? If it is neither commanded for or against, then we must turn to other Scripture for determining how we will decide on how to train our children. Questions like What does being under grace instead of law mean for us? Does it apply to/change child training? How does God deal with His children? What does “Fear God” mean? Should children fear their parents? Maybe we should pick one at a time :razz: Or maybe the Bible simply supports spanking. Should be interesting!

OK, I’ll take the bait. The 2 week old has me up anyway, LOL.

Betimes:
1. In good time; early.
2. Once in a while; on occasion.
3. Quickly; soon.

You said One who loves his son chastens him betimes. But you also said God did give the Israelites repeated and long chances to repent before punishing them. However, once He sent them in to punishment, they were in it deep and long. Many years in fact. So… are you implying that God does not love His children? :twisted:

Or perhaps the definition of chasten needs further examination. What happens to your paradigm if chasten =/= punish??

Replying to July 14, 2008 above. Ummm, not a good analogy. Why? God did give the Israelites repeated and long chances to repent before punishing them. However, once He sent them in to punishment, they were in it deep and long. Many years in fact. Are you suggesting that we follow this example? Give them years to repent and if they do not, punish them for years. One who loves his son chastens him betimes. Look up the word betimes.

I was 14 years old and alarmed by what I saw in the churches. Not only were almost all the “Christian” children I knew misbehaved. As they began to grow older, they sloughed off into the world – addicted to sleezy TV, nintendo, and immodest clothes, among other things. If that was the way it had to be, I did not want kids. Then my parents purchased “To Train up a Child” at a second hand store. It changed our lives. It did not draw us closer to God – no, but it equipped my parents with the tools and the wisdom they needed to train my younger siblings. And me. Well, I got excited and became part of the process. I used “the rod” while babysitting when need be. And I loved my little brothers to death. In short, to this day, my brothers are among my best friends. They are now 11 and I am 25. When I call them they instantly come – always. When I go somewhere, they are almost always begging to come. They love games, helping with work, spending the night at my place – almost anything you can imagine. The key? A balance of love and discipline. You see, God commands us to fear Him throughout the entire Scripture. Without a fear of God, we cannot relate to Him as we are designed to. And yet, He also loves us so much He died for us. Many times in Scripture God calls believers “children” or “sons” or “daughters.” My best hope for raising my sons and daughters is to do it like God does with us. He punishes/disciplines sin. He sacrifices himself for us. He is the perfect balance of love and authority. I have much more I could say but time does not permit. I am not a Pearlite. But I will say that their child training materials are very biblical and they work. I can hardly wait to have my own children!

Just wanted to let you know that anyone interested in getting a copy of my book is free to visit my website and just send me a message and I will be happy to send them the book free.

Best wishes,

Samuel Martin
Jerusalem Israel
http://www.biblechild.com

No one has said that they are all bad, just that there is enough wrong with their teachings that it makes it worthwhile to be a Berean and test all they teach against scripture. Not scripture as they interpret it, but scripture all by itself.

Best wishes to you with your growing family.

I’m late to the party and it looks like have much to catch up on! Thanks for the link. I saw the article in NGJ a few weeks ago and shortly thereafter the notes to my inbox increased as well. It’s an issue people are still thinking about and still talking about. Thanks for keeping the converstation going.

You obviously have read and verbally adhere to hermeneutics, yet you continue to choose to interpret whole books and passages figuratively; therefore deriving a false interpretation that is not supported by the hermeneutics you claim to adhere to!

Surely, Heather, you’re overlooking the way that even you would interpret Proverbs–either that or I’m about to be very surprised!

Take this Proverb:

Every wise woman buildeth her house: but the foolish plucketh it down with her hands.

My interpretation of this Proverb is that a wise woman exerts a positive influence on her home/household while a foolish woman exerts a destructive influence on her home/household.

But if we must interpret this verse the way you’re saying, then we have to conclude that it is talking about actual home construction and actual home demolition.

But I don’t think you think that! I notice that Debi Pearl has an article titled, The Wise Woman Builds Her House, in which she describes ways to be a positive influence and doesn’t mention carpentry at all.

So I’m going to challenge you to widen your perspective on interpreting Proverbs. A solid appreciation for Proverbs’ employment of word pictures, hyperbole, metaphor, and figures of speech is truly essential to grasping the truths it transmits.

“When parents sin, they ask God to forgive them, repent and know they are forgiven. When children sin, they are judged, tried, condemned and punished.”

That’s a good point. Great conversation, everyone.

I think we are often, in these types of conversations, in danger of using language in a way that only confuses the issue. We use these words interchangeably, but they have different meanings:

Punishment
Discipline
Judgment

Clearly we must discipline our children. It is less clear that we are to punish them.

God is shown enacting judgment upon people and nations. He’s not punishing them. They don’t get another chance, and they aren’t supposed to learn something from it. When God does this, it’s final. It’s over, turn out the lights. That’s clearly not our role with our children, and we shouldn’t speak as though it is.

And even when God does act in judgment, as you pointed out, nearly always it comes after a long time and many chances.

Um…. my husband and I are in the throes of the “to spank or not to spank” questions, and one thing he pointed out to me was how often in the OT the Lord gives his children *repeated* chances to repent.

Repeatedly He sends prophets to warn, famines to “get their attention,” etc. Do you realize how many generations of Jews God suffered long with before sending them into captivity? Not exactly “direct and instant punishment,” eh? And even then, He preserved a remnant…

I think my new favorite verse is Psalm 103:14, For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.

I understand your position, but there is just one question I must ask you. :?: What is the rule or guideline by which you judge whether or not a verse or book (or the entire Bible) is to be taken literally or figuratively? In other words, what is the standard you use to interpret the Scriptures? I use the standard of taking a passage literally, unless the passage itself says that it is a parable.

Heather, while it is important to realize what the bible flatly says isn’t literal, it’s also important to understand what kind of book one is reading. For example: The Song of Songs. It’s a book of poetry. When he says that her teeth are like a flock of sheep, it doesn’t say that it’s a parable. Am I to assume, then, that he’s saying her teeth are furry and smell bad? Or am I to assume that it’s a metaphor and he’s saying that her teeth are white?

I’m thinking because it’s a book of poetry, I can reasonably understand that it’s a metaphor.

The same goes with Proverbs. The title of the book tells me something vital to applying good hermeneutics. It tells me that the passages are not laws, but bits of wisdom phrased in sayings.

I can see that you very firmly and sincerely believe that you are in the right. And I firmly and sincerely believe that I am as well. One day we’ll have our answers. Until then, may be both walk in faith, assured at least, of the others devotion to our common faith.

It took me a while to finally read through this blog, rather than simply skipping through it, and I just realized that my arguments are falling on deaf ears. You are right, everything that I have said has been brought up by others and proven true by the Bible with CORRECT interpretation. You obviously have read and verbally adhere to hermeneutics, yet you continue to choose to interpret whole books and passages figuratively; therefore deriving a false interpretation that is not supported by the hermeneutics you claim to adhere to!

I am not at all meaning to offend or confront you, but I am respectfully backing out of this debate for the sole reason that the folks I’m trying to debate with are unmoving in their beliefs. At this point I fear not even the Word of God can change their convictions. But in the end all of God’s children will stand together, knowing the Truth and rejoicing in His grace. I look forward to that day! :grin:

God Bless You All!

Heather Sharpe

I hesitate to speak for anyone else, but for myself and I would venture for most people here, this Very Short Course in Hermeneutics would be a good summary of basic Bible understanding and application.

I think it is best to assume that we each here are women and men who take the Bible seriously, and look to God’s direction through the Bible as our guidebook for life.

Grace and peace,

I understand your position, but there is just one question I must ask you. :?: What is the rule or guideline by which you judge whether or not a verse or book (or the entire Bible) is to be taken literally or figuratively? In other words, what is the standard you use to interpret the Scriptures? I use the standard of taking a passage literally, unless the passage itself says that it is a parable. I do not mean this to be offensive, but you seem to be watering down the Word of God. There are so many stories in His Word where God killed bully children and commanded parents to stone rebellious and disobedient sons and daughters. In the Old Testament God did not show mercy and grace, only judgement and commandments. *Before* Christ gave Himself up as the final sacrifice, the Israelites were preforming under the law and God was showing direct and instant punishment for their sins. *Since* the death of Christ, we are now living under mercy and grace, and will be judged in Heaven, not on this earth. The point that I am getting at is this: God is a JUST God, and when a child who knows right from wrong chooses to do wrong, God cannot turn His head, and in the OT He DID NOT. Even though we are under a different system today (grace), there is still meant to be authority in our homes and consequences for wrong, in order to save them from a greater consequence when they die and stand before God. I’m not saying that spanking is always the only way to discipline our children. I have spanked my oldest child maybe twice in his whole life, and my youngest not even once. However, training and discipline every moment of their childhood is vital to bringing them up in the Lord. Perhaps we partially agree on discipline today, but what you are failing to grasp is the fact that in the OT days God most certainly DID command and advocate parents to use a physical rod. We are not to take that to be our commandment for us TODAY, but it was meant to be literal for them THEN.

So we should APPLY it in principle, but UNDERSTAND that it was literal.

Again, thank you for your response, I am really enjoying this lively debate!

Heather Sharpe

Well you know with my background I simply must respond.

You want to talk fruits of a parenting? Let’s compare and contrast myself with…oh MY PARENTS. My mother is a faithful and avid reader of NGJ. She adores the Pearls and when I first became a mother made it very clear that to be a good mother I needed to adhere to their methods as well.

While I was not raised specifically by TTUAC because it was not yet written, I was raised in that same method, in that same Christian culture and my mother certainly does adhere to TTUAC methods with the 5 she is currently raising.

So, let’s see. Mom has 3 adult children and 1 on the verge with which to judge her parenting. Oh but wait, she doesn’t speak to her adult children anymore. We’re too dysfunctional and of this world now for her to have time for. And, for our own part, we happen to believe she should have been locked up for her selfish parenting and her child abuse…oh, that’s right, the Pearls call it Biblical parenting. My sister’s therapist recently called it battery acid. I thought that was a good description.

So, my mother has 3 thriving healthy adult children whom she has no contact with whatsoever. She has 8 (with a 9th on the way) grandchildren, all of which she is forbidden to have any contact with. Her 17 year old is desperately waiting to finish high school next year so he can get out of her house and has NO intention of speaking to her once he leaves. Her 14 year old hates her and tells me this via emails when she gets a chance. Her 12 year old…well, he’s attempted to run away repeatedly now. Verdict is still out on the 11 and 10 year olds. But, to be quite honest, that’s not a track record I would want for my parenting of 8 children. At least 5 either have no contact or openly state they will have no contact once they are old enough to leave her home.

Good, Pearl Biblical parenting at work for you, ladies. I lived it. I should know.

Meanwhile, I suscribe to a gentler, more loving parenting style. I prefer to parent as if Jesus were actively watching me and actively reminding me that I must be like a child to enter the Kingdom myself.

My children are amazing. I don’t just say this as a proud mother. My youngest son’s therapist informed me Thursday he’s NEVER met children like mine. Church members weep to see the beauty of my children. Heck, I weep to see the beauty that God has blessed me with in these children.

Oh, therapist you say. Yes, see my youngest son is still a fosterchild. He has huge demons in his heart and soul still. We’re still fighting. No, we’re not waiting for the countdown until we can spank him. We’re fighting to help him heal.

And, here is the TRUE mark of my children for you. This week, my son’s therapist told us to give up on him. Told us the cost to save him will be too great for the other children to pay.

Being good parents, we discussed this with the other children. Afterall, the fight to save and heal this one will take the largest toll on these children. I honestly expected at least a few of the children to say yes, we must give up.

They didn’t. And, they had no reason to feel they had to say something *we* expected, because we are honestly weak and fragile and aren’t sure we can help this child heal.

Nope. My children clearly demonstrated the love of Christ in a way I had forgotten in the trenches with this hurting child. They unanimously told us we MUST carry on. They LOVE him, even though they know he does not love them. And, as far as they are concerned, his life is worth what it will cost them. Furthermore didn’t we, mommy and daddy, remember that this is precisely what Jesus would have us do? This is what Jesus wanted us to do And, no matter how naughty and difficult this child is, Jesus still loves him and we must too.

I’m not a perfect parent. Far from it, honestly. But, I didn’t spank this fruit of the Spirit into my children. I showed them by example what it means to live a life in the shadow of the Cross. And, they have choosen to find their own path to that Cross and to live a life always concious of what their Savior would have them do. I didn’t stand and attempt to BE their Savior, as Pearl would tell us we should. I merely allowed my life to be an example to point the way to that Cross. Their Savior found them, each and every one of them, he claimed them and they have chosen to follow HIM, not me, HIM.

And, unlike Micheal Pearl, when my children went to that Cross to find their Savior, they never found me there telling them I represented their Savior. They found a merciful and loving God one they have choosen to follow. And, today, one they have choosen to remain in obedience to even at a high cost to themselves to fight for the heart of a little brother who has never known true love and true committment and safety before entering this home and being surrounded by these siblings.

Now, I’m sorry. But, for me the question of whether to follow Micheal Pearl or my Christ is a very simple answer. I look at my parents who followed Pearl and I see the fruits of their labors. And, I look at my children, whom have been raised with the love and mercy that a forgiving and protective Creator would have them raised in. I see fruits in my children which humble me. I see hearts in tune with their Creator in ways I can only wish to be. And, I realize quite simply that Micheal Pearl has missed the mark.

Hurting children? Yup, missing the mark and deciding to be the Savior for your children is definitely hurting children. I should know. I was one of those children hurt by this parenting method.

You can’t pick and choose which are literal and which aren’t arbitrarily or simply because you think so. And can you explain to me how would one use Proverbs “generally”?

“An apple a day keeps the doctor away” does not mean that we must eat a single apple every day to avoid Dr. bills. It means that good eating is important for good health.
The same idea goes for biblical Proverbs. Taken in the larger context of what is being discussed, it seems clear that the focus is on teaching the importance of good solid discipline.

I would encourage you to study a bit further in Proverbs, and read the rod scriptures in the broader context of what the chapter is discussing as a general principle, and what Proverbs are.

Peace to you,

Anne

Heather, glad you’ve joined in! You’ve brought up some ideas that have at least in part been discussed in depth in this thread. . . I’d encourage you to read through it (I know, 80 comments is a lot!).

Grace and peace,
TG

Thanks for your reply. :smile: However, I do not agree with the statement that all of Proverbs should not be taken literally, as you said. The definition of Proverbs, as is described, does not mean that it is not to be taken literally, rather, it is to be used in a general way – meaning NOT 100% of the time, nor in all circumstances. The definition of Proverbs very much supports how I interpret and understand them. On the other hand, I do understand that there are some passages in the Bible that are not meant to be taken literally, but figuratively. From mine and my husband’s personal study though, we’ve found the passages about discipline to be literal. I respect your opinion, and I thank you for your response. :grin:

-Heather Sharpe

Proverbs definition ~ “short statement of wisdom or advice that has passed into general use.

The Proverbs were meant to teach us something, not to be applied literally or as a law or commandment.

So, knowing that, are the Proverbs telling us to discipline or beat our children with a stick? Considering that the Orthodox Jews don’t spank, and that in studying the rod it can also be an instrument with which one gives guidance or measurement, it seems perfectly reasonable to say that the Proverbs are teaching us the importance of discipline.

And just because I reject the teachings of the Pearl’s doesn’t mean I don’t discipline.

-Anne Basso
Age 31
Proud Mother to 5 beautiful and well behaved children whom I adore. ;)