Punishment vs. Support
Posted by TulipGirl | Under Political Concerns Monday Sep 1, 2008“Look, I got two daughters — 9 years old and 6 years old. I am going to teach them first about values and morals, but if they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.” –Obama
“We’re proud of Bristol’s decision to have her baby and even prouder to become grandparents. . . .Bristol and the young man she will marry are going to realize very quickly the difficulties of raising a child, which is why they will have the love and support of our entire family.” –Palin
What a difference.
“This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.” Deuteronomy 30:19
The contrast couldn’t be more stark, could it?
Agreed, you don’t get a clearer picture of worldviews than this, do you?
punished with the blessing of life?
Lets face facts, when a teenaged girl has a baby, our culture punishes her for it. She automatically becomes disadvantaged economically and socially.
The population with the highest abortion rates are college students. Why? What do you think happens when a college student gets knocked up? There are little or no resources to help her continue her education and get the degree she needs to work in a successful career. She and her baby (if she doesn’t abort the baby,) fall into the viscious cycle of poverty. Usually, the father of the child is unsupportive and she is a single mother. How many men find a single mother attractive?
Obama’s right, not that the baby isn’t a blessing, a baby is always a blessing. Our culture, however is twisted and cruel, it routinely allows the most vulnerable and needy among us; an unborn child and his or her teenaged mother to suffer in poverty without the advantages that should be afforded to every one of us.
But Palin is right as well. If one of my children got pregnant before they were financially ready, my husband and I would help support them until they were able to complete their education and establish themselves in a career in which they could support themselves. This is what families do.
This is what my husband and I would have been blessed with when we were young parents trying to do our best in spite of the odds against us.
TG, this is a quote of Obama in response to this news…
“I’ve heard some of the news on this, so let me be as clear as possible. I have said before and I will repeat again: I think people’s families are off-limits. And people’s children are especially off-limits.
This shouldn’t be part of our politics. It has no relevance to Governor Palin’s performance as a governor, or her potential performance as a vice president. So, I would strongly urge people to back off these kinds of stories.
You know, my mother had me when she was 18. And how families deals with issues, and teenage children, that shouldn’t be part of our politics. And I hope that anybody supporting me understands that’s off-limits.”
I’m trying to imagine saying “yes” to an offer to spend months campaigning for vice-president when I have a special-needs infant at home. …. Nope. Can’t imagine it.
Oh, and your seventeen-year-old daughter? Her pregnancy is going to be headline news for days, and commented on forever.
I really can’t imagine putting her through that.
Taken out of context, this statement might seem harsh. I think it has an entirely different meaning than interpreted here, when placed in the context of all Obama’s other remarks about this situation. Remember, Obama’s mother had him at age 18. “Sound bite” politics are what encourage divisiveness, I believe.
As soon as I heard this on the news last night,I prayed for that family. All politics aside, this mom needs to be shown grace and love and compassion as she ministers to her daughter.
I am in agreement with nicejoest, because I have seen many mothers with special needs children of all ages, and no matter what you WANT to do, the idea of being governor, or vice president, is far too much for a mother of such an infant. Her son is almost the same age as my own, and I honestly can’t imagine a mother of an infant being able to go on the campaign trail, special needs or not. All infants are special needs, in my book, not just the ones with down syndrome or other problems.
I have kept from commenting anywhere about family things with politicians, simply because what they practice in Washington is far more important to me than how they are raising their children, and we all believe in different things in that regard anyway.
Honestly, though, as much as I dislike Obama’s stance on abortion, and I’m pro-life, what we need is a lot more than people who want to outlaw abortion. We need real support for these young women (like Palin’s daughter), who do not have the resources or the respect to be able to raise their children in our society, even in today’s “accepting” society.
I worked with a single mother’s ministry for about a year, and many of the women were young, but some were older, divorced women. Even the ones who were older loved the support that they got just once a month from women in their same situation, raising children alone. My own mother also was a single mother as a teen, but had an abortion when she was pregnant after her first baby was born, she knows what it’s like to be a teen mother, but she also knows what it’s like to experience abortion. We need more people doing ministry to women in crisis pregnancy, instead of thinking that it’s somehow the government’s job to deal with these very personal problems. We’ve seen already how well that’s going.
What a contrast! Thank you for posting it.
I have become an overnight fan of Gov. Palin. She is a brave woman who has taken on corruption in her state and reached across party lines to govern her state.
Sexist comments disappoint me, espcially when they’re coming from other women. We would NEVER say such things about a man who has a pregnant daughter or special needs child.
I have no doubt that the decisions she had made have included the counsel of her husband, family members, and likely her pastor. Let’s face it, there are women who are more gifted than ourselves. And we need to prayerfully support them.
I admire her determination to live out her pro-life convictions with both her baby and her grandchild.
She will be a fantastic vice president and I will be proud to vote for her in November.
I meant to place the smily face at the end of my comment. I’m not sure how it got in the middle of it.
I am not an Obama fan but you are misrepresenting him here by not going to the original source of the comment. You do know that this “quote” from Obama is originally from a satire, right? (http://www.scrappleface.com/?p=3079)
Why am I not surprised that you would incorrectly characterize another professing Christian with Internet gossip.
Oh, thanks for providing your pastor’s contact info in a previous post. Maybe I can finally have a discussion with your pastor about you the the way you did with our pastor about Gary Ezzo.
Hank, As you are aware, the best satire pokes fun based on the realities of life. Scrappleface was pulling an old quote of Obama’s (from March of this year) and applying it to the current situation — just as I have provided it to illustrate the stark contrast between the attitudes of each of these candidates.
The full transcript, from March (as you’ll see the link above is from March as well) are available from CNN here:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0803/29/bb.01.html
Grace and hope,
To clarify my previous post, I find it hard to think that any man OR woman with a young child or several young children could go out on the campaign trail without all of them. If this works for the Palin family, then that’s wonderful, though I can’t help thinking that even Barack Obama’s children, older, but children nonetheless, are having a very hard time without him. It’s one thing to campaign in your own state, and get to be home almost every night, it’s entirely different to be all over the place, sometimes leaving your family for several weeks at a time. I much prefer to see presidential candidates who have older children, but not who are so old themselves that you wonder if they will have anything left to govern a nation after being elected.
I personally would find it incredibly difficult if I had to be apart from my husband for more than a few days at a time, because our family works much better as a whole. I’m sure there are families that don’t have this blessing, or that can handle dad being gone a lot, but even then, many families (not just those of politicians) struggle.
I’m not against fathers staying at home, either, if mom is the bread-winner.
Getting back to the quotes, it’s really important to realize that just because a person isn’t pro-life doesn’t automatically mean that they can’t be a Christian. Sometimes it takes a miracle for one to finally see what life is, and I know some Christians myself who are not strictly pro-life. This is one part of a larger platform that is largely pro-people, instead of simply pro-business. Sure, it’s the one part I simply disagree with, but Obama understands what poverty is, as he has seen it firsthand, and has ideas that might actually help. There’s more to the poverty issue than pro-life. And there’s more to this country than that as well. If it’s all we’re going to focus on, we’re never going to get anywhere.
This is a stark contrast because Obama’s quote was off-the-cuff, general comment in the context of a talk about STDs, etc. (A speech in which he was already fumbling for words.) Palin’s remark was a well-thought-out press release concerning her own daughter who is actually in that situation. It’s apples vs. oranges, and a really bizarre comparison in my opinion.
Chewy,
I can accept the differences between the extemporaneous and planned statements as being very different, in different contexts.
The reason I posted these quotes together was not to imply Obama’s statement was a response to Palin’s daughter’s pregnancy as I realize some have thought, but to illustrate how I see their statements as reflective of generalized underlying attitudes.
Looking at the larger US culture, it seems as if we can see a scope of attitudes towards motherhood, pregnancy, babies, beginning-of-life and end-of-life seasons. . .
A good portion of our culture DOES have more negative attitudes towards these things. ZPGers and childfree types are an extreme — but the underlying assumptions they have about life are commonplace in a good portion of the wider culture. Pregnancy and babies ARE often seen as a punishment, not simply a result of intercourse (wise or unwise.) Motherhood — and to a lesser degree fatherhood — are not valued as highly as I believe they should be. I don’t think Obama was being crass or ugly with his “don’t want them punished with a baby” phrase, as much as just reflecting part of his cultural assumptions — and those assumptions are commonplace and probably reflect a lot of people’s. . .
While there are certainly extremes (like some in the QF movement), I’m glad that much of the US Christian subculture has moved in a direction that is more welcoming to children, pregnancy, motherhood. . . And I agree that it should be lived out in more ways than “just” being against abortion or having lots of babies. Like in Rome, with the Christians rescuing the children who were abandoned due to pater familias. Or the Christians being the ones to take in the abandoned, the elderly, care for the sick. . . things done throughout the ages as a reflection of viewing people as imago Dei.
It’s the classic blessing vs. burden attitude. . .
Abby,
When you say, “This is one part of a larger platform that is largely pro-people, instead of simply pro-busines,” what seems to be implied is that the Democrat platform is pro-people and the Republican platform is pro-business. Is that what you mean?
If that is what you intend to convey, I’ve got to say that is quite the misrepresentation of Republican policies and beliefs.
I share your concerns about parents and children and involvement in politics and high-demand jobs. Personally, I’ve got to trust that the Palin family has seriously weighed the impact this will have on their family, and the implications it will have for all family members. I am certain they are aware that this will demand sacrifices from everyone. Yet, seeing how much Gov. Palin has incorporated her children into her daily work life thus far, I think she and her husband will be able to work things out.
Our family came under similar questioning (and condemnation) when we were preparing to go to Ukraine. Some were aghast when I got pregnant during our time of preparation. Many questioned the wisdom, safety, education, health of our children. It was difficult to be “in the fishbowl.” Yet, that was where the Lord was leading our family, each step along the way. Did we make sacrifices? Yes — even our children. On the other hand, it was worth it — both spiritually as well as for our family and the purpose for which we went.
I trust that the Palin family (as I assume the Obama family and candidate families of the past) have weighed the costs and sacrifices carefully before making the final decision to run for prominent public office.
Hank-
Considering that you’ve quoted The Onion as an actual, legitimate news source, maybe you aren’t the right person to be critiquing the discernment and sources of others. Just thinkin’ out loud here.
An excerpt from your angry response to an Onion article on Bush’s prayer habits:
Source: http://www.hoei.com/blog/archives/2006/05/03/242/
Heh.
John,
Uhm…I didn’t quote anyone. Your wife did.
That was the whole point of my comment. She placed a “Quote” in this post that was not a quote at all and referenced it to another blog that did the same. This non-quote was from satire and not from Obama himself so Tulipirl has misrepresented his actual words about Palin by writing this post the way she did.
If you will go back to the post on my blog referenced and read the comments then you will plainly see that I am not ashamed to admit publicly that I made a mistake.
Grace and Peace
Again, Hank, the quote attributed to Obama was actually a quote from Obama from March 2008, with the full transcript from CNN news here:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0803/29/bb.01.html
Hank-
Debating with you always reminds me of the Black Knight in Monty Python’s Search for the Holy Grail. Particularly the part where King Arthur cuts off his arm and then the Black Knight vehemently denies that he’s been wounded.
TulipGirl linked to a CNN transcript in which Obama makes the exact statement which she quoted. Since the whole clicky-clicky-hyperlinky thing is stumping you, I’ll quote the relevant passage, in context:
The quote was not originally drawn from a satire. The satire was drawing upon a direct Obama quote. Cart-and-Horse. Look it up.
Grace and Peace
How like a bunch of women to be so catty and unsupportive of another woman. If it was a man would a downs syndrome child or a pregnant teenager even be an issue?
I think not.
i have been enjoying this debate/discussion, but in no way does it equal the outstanding speech delivered by Governor Palin just now. May freedom ring!
I am not ashamed to admit publicly that I made a mistake
Well Hank, seems like it might be time to do that.
Yah. The difference is obvious.
TulipGirl,
Thank you for your kind response. I do appreciate the request for clarification, because going back, I realize I didn’t clearly say what I meant.
No, I wasn’t comparing the Democratic platform with the Republican platform. I was making a point that Obama’s presidential platform is based on social justice, rather than what we’ve seen in many candidates in the past (on both sides) who have big business running their campaigns. To me, this whole election is a refreshing change, because McCain is the one who pushed through the campaign finance reforms, and Obama is going one step further in that regard.
Getting back to the issue at hand, I wanted to say to “Mother of 4″ that I wholeheartedly disagree with that statement. Family values do matter, whether it’s a man or a woman running for government office. I don’t know about others, but it would be an issue to me just the same. Let’s give people a little more credit. I do believe the “issue” of the Obama children being so young has come up occasionally, even if it’s not so recent anymore.
You know, I have to say that quoting Sen. Obama out of context like this is intellectually dishonest. You seem to want to imply that Sen. Obama is rabidly pro-abortion. However, it is quite clear to me that Sen. Obama is talking about BIRTH CONTROL, and the ‘mistake’ he is referring to would be having sex far too young.
When you read it in context, you realize Sen. Obama is ALSO talking about how many folks do, in fact, want to PUNISH young women who make poor choices. Make sure she knows nothing about condoms so that if she has sex, she will suffer the consequences of a baby (and poverty and lack of education and all the rest that goes with teen pregnancy in our country).
You have many wise words, and your writing often inspires. Even when I don’t agree with you, I find you usually are careful and considerate of those you disagree with. TulipGirl, I have often mourned for you when others have twisted your words, misrepresented your character, disparaged your family. And so it pains me to say this, but what I see here is a twisting of words. A quick, off the cuff post that confirms some pre-conceived notion that each and every one of us that is not ready to outlaw all abortion yesterday are evil baby haters.
This is not nearly as obvious and clear and you are trying to make it seem.
-A
A,
I really do appreciate your willingness to share your impressions of what I posted.
I posted two quotes, from two different sources, with no commentary from me except the title, “Punishment vs. Support.”
I see that you understood what I was posting to “. . .to imply that Sen. Obama is rabidly pro-abortion.”
Abortion wasn’t really on my mind AT ALL when I posted that. Though, considering your response, Chewy’s, Debra’s and others — posting those quotes without posting my thoughts about them did leave it vague and open to the interpretation of the readers here.
I agree, I should have linked to the full context of the quote in the opening post, and I did include it later in the comments.
In the context of our wider culture, as I wrote above to Chewymom, we oh-so-often see a negative attitude towards pregnancy, infants, motherhood, childcare. The attitude of people being “punished” with babies is common. I very much mourn that our culture does push aside children and often only values them in certain circumstances.
This post had NOTHING to do with abortion, and EVERYTHING to do with cultural attitudes, as I saw them expressed by two different public figures. If you read my post again and the comments here (or, even, my blog as a whole), you’ll see that I have never written anything that would lead to the stereotype of “each and every one of us that is not ready to outlaw all abortion yesterday are evil baby haters.”
Grace and hope,
For further clarification. . . The impetus behind the original post was well summarized by Sarah:
Hello TulipGirl:
I too am appalled at the idea the whole “babies as punishment” idea. But I think you have to be living in a very special extra-thick bubble not to realize that this characterization usually comes from the right, not the left.
This is a typical comment that was left on a blog I write for (in the original spelling):
“What ever hapened to responsability for one’s own actions? I do not care if you run about and get ridden like the town bicycle (I’d advice not to) but please realize that if you’re going to, you might create something whose ticker of life begins at conception, which happens at *ding, ding ding!* intercourse! So don’t say ‘Oh it’s okay, if I get pregnant I’ll kill it.’ ”
In other words, abortion must be prohibited because it offers a tempting get out of jail (pregnancy) free card to shameless hussies. I think you have to be in denial not to admit that this type of attitude is very common, not among Obama’s supporters but among his opponents.
I see the whole circling of wagons around Palin as another glaring example of double standards and hypocrisy on the part of the religious right. When the pregnant teens in question are poor young women, especially women of color, the right’s media attack dogs feel free to pile on the stigma and shaming judgements, without fear of criticism from their loyal fans. Republicans are also not known for their generous support of WIC, pre-natal care, food stamps and other programs that benefit fetuses conceived by teens who don’t have the good fortune to have parents on the State of Alaska’s generous payroll.
Seems like a case of beam and mote to me.
Finally, can you imagine if it was Obama’s teenage daughter who was pregnant, and he released a statement saying he was “proud” of her? The wailing and gnashing of teeth from O’Reilly, Dobson, et al. would be terrible to hear. They would certainly not refrain from loudly proclaiming judgement.
Anyway, just thought you might appreciate a glimpse at how your juxtaposition of Obama’s out of context sound-bite with Palin’s press release looks from a different vantage point.
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